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COPPER TOXICITY SYNDROME by Lawrence Wilson, MD

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by markmc20001, Nov 15, 2011.

  1. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    Haven't read this all yet, but interesting article on copper. Copper is an antagonist to vitamin C, and visa versa.


  2. baccarat

    baccarat Senior Member

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    He says that the best test for copper toxicity is hair analysis. I think red cells analysis is more reliable.
  3. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    Blood tests arent that good for copper levels unless its an ongoing high exposure happening right now.. with copper it dont stay in the blood but rather gets stored in the body tissues. If you have been over exposured in the past, it just wont show in the blood.

    (the most accurate way to test copper is a liver biopsy.. hair tests are often done cause of being far easier then getting a liver biopsy done and they do show past copper issues as the body releases copper throu the hair..
  4. CAcfs

    CAcfs Senior Member

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    I believe I read that whole link, and I got confused, so can someone help me figure this out?......

    Are we supposed to be taking Zinc or Copper? What I got from the reading what I did a few weeks ago, was to take Zinc, and in a strange way, that will solve the issues and make the copper we have better utilized???? True or false? So right now I'm just taking Zinc, 50 mg (yes, i realize that can mess you up as it's over daily value, so i'm being cautious).
  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I was wondering about this. I've read Wilson's info about copper toxicity and based on the symptom list I've questioned whether I have it. I came across another website that has nearly identical information as Wilson which means they either got the information from Wilson or they got the information from Dr. Eck. On that site I found something a bit confusing about Zinc supplementation. I hope someone else can shed some light on this.
    http://www.holistic-back-relief.com/copper-toxicity.html
  6. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    " just taking Zinc alone can cause serious side effects as Zinc will cause a Copper detox as the body dumps this excess copper..."

    According to this guy from this site..he does not share this same view....

    "There are other copper antagonists such as zinc, however while zinc is generally documented as such in the nutritional literature, it is not only the weakest of all copper antagonists, but it's action on copper takes place only on an intestinal level, so once copper goes into storage, zinc will have no effect on lowering copper any longer."

    http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html
    Lotus97 likes this.
  7. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    I know this is an older thread but I'd like to revisit this discussion. I'm trying to wrap my head around this zinc/copper thing. Which side of the fence is correct? I'd like to think the acu-cell guy is because of his cellular analysis and maybe because of this, knows more than your average Joe Blow nutritionist who probably just regurgitates a lot from what other nutritionists claim. Let's just assume the acu-cell guy is correct and if so, that pretty much flies in the face of what you read and hear all the time about "make sure you supplement extra copper if you are taking extra zinc". If someone gets enough copper in their diet, then why would extra copper need to be supplemented no matter how much extra zinc one is taking? As for myself, I take my zinc away from food anyway at night so I don't have to worry about the intestinal competition with any copper containing foods. Can anyone more in the know shed some more light on this?

    Even if one was "low" copper, further on down the same page from the link I posted above he says...

    "Taking a 3mg copper pill for one to two weeks, or less, is all that is needed for an adult to normalize any copper deficiency, and then it should be discontinued"

    So then if we can also assume he is correct in saying the majority of people he has tested show signs of elevated copper, then cannot one assume that the majority of people who supplement extra copper because they take extra zinc, and who get enough copper in their diet, are actually contributing more to an excess copper toxic state?

    Rand
  8. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I was supplementing copper for a long time because I was taking relatively high doses of zinc. I think this was a bad idea. I certainly feel better now that I'm off it.
  9. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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  10. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Yeah, I eat dark chocolate also, which has quite a bit of copper in it. Some also say we get copper from water pipes.
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Rand56
    I hope you're right about the acu-cell info. There seems to be a wealth of information on that site. It's going to take me awhile to comb through all that information. Some of the things Lawrence Wilson talks about are pretty whacked out. I did find his information about sympathetic dominance interesting though. Even though I have a lot of symptoms he mentions about copper toxicity, they can be cause by other things so until I get tested I'm not going to make any assumptions. Just to be on the safe side I'm not supplementing with copper, but I get at least 1 mg of copper from my diet.
  12. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    hi Lotus

    I'd like to know myself a definitive answer on who is right. I know the question I brought up is really no new shocking revelation. That acu-cell site has been up for many years and no doubt many along the way have questioned what I just questioned. Unless someone is on some kind of highly restrictive diet and not getting enough essential copper, then I don't see why one would need to supplement extra copper if they are taking extra zinc, but I'd like to be proved wrong if anyone has more of a definitive answer. All I know is, and it seems like the overwhelming consensus from what you read and hear is, "make sure you take extra copper if taking extra zinc". SO, does one really need to do this is the question.

    I'd say roughly about 3 months ago I started taking about 60mg's of zinc citrate per day and I took it without any extra supplemental copper. I did not notice any negative effects from not supplementing copper. I did notice positives which were evident in the gym as far as my strength lifting weights, so I could have easily been short on zinc. I did not want to stay on that high dosage for an extended time, so for about the last 6 weeks I've been only doing 30mg's per day and still without any extra copper, but to add to what Adreno said above about when he was taking extra copper, 5 days ago I decided to experiment thinking that "maybe" I'm low on copper. I do have depression...not typical MDD, I guess it can be more classified as anhedonia/dysthymia. I do not have the anxiety typical of MDD <I had MDD years ago>. I'm short on dopamine and NE. So I figured..try some extra copper because I know copper is needed for dopamine beta hydroxylase which is an enzyme that helps convert dopamine to NE. For 3 days in a row I took 6mg's of copper per day, felt worse, then the next day dropped it back to 2mg, and today none and I'm "staying" with none. Did I feel worse solely just from this extra copper? I don't really know. Could very easily been from something else. All I know is I felt worse and did not want to continue to feel worse. I also know that copper is needed for MAO and if anything, I need those suckers inhibited moreso than keeping them around. I'm thinking I get enough copper in my diet where I don't need to be supplementing extra no matter what amount I supplement with zinc.

    By the way I'd like to add, zinc citrate seems to be the only form of zinc I can take that does not cause an upset stomach for me. Even taking it without food does not upset my stomach. Any other form of zinc I have taken in the past I have gotten some stomach issues with.

    Rand
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    And similarly most people say if you have copper toxicity just take extra zinc and avoid all copper even in foods. I'm not sure if you need to avoid copper in foods. I've read that a copper toxicity could consist of too much unbioavailable copper, but actually a deficiency in bioavailable copper. I don't know enough about the subject so maybe avoiding or at least limiting dietary copper is a good idea.

    Tyrosine and SAMe are good for dopamine and norepinephrine. Have you tried either of those? TMG and methionine can also be converted into SAMe. Phosphatidylserine, TMG and choline stimulate the BHMT pathyway which can convert dopamine into norepinephrine. PS wouldn't be good if you have low cortisol though. Also, Betaine HCL functions the same way as TMG.
  14. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    I've taken all of those you have listed and I'd have to say out of all of those tyrosine has helped the most but like what a lot of other people say, and also which is the case with me, tolerance builds rapidly so the effects are not sustained.

    I'd have to say there are 2 OTC supps that have helped me the most, licorice and curcumin. Problem with curcumin is, I had to take a really high dose for an effect...I'm talking 3600mg's per day. From what I understand one shouldn't really go above 2000mg's unless you are trying to fight some cancer. But nonetheless I did get some positive effect from it..maybe from it's MAOI properties but I believe it's not that strong of an MAOI...so maybe I just got more of an effect from the higher dosage. Licorice has the most immediate effect with me. I actually just got done reading more about it and I did not know this but apparently from this study..it can be a pretty potent MAOI. Most of what you hear about licorice is that it keeps cortisol in your system longer. So maybe I get some synergistic effect with the cortisol enhancement along with the MAOI properties. Only problem with licorice is it's best to cycle it and it also has estrogenic properties. This study says it's just "slightly" weaker than harmine and I know harmine is a pretty potent MAOI.

    "Extracts of some licorice specimens of types A and B also showed inhibitory effects on monoamine oxidase (44-64% inhibition, at the concentration of 30 micrograms/ml), which were slightly weaker than that of harmane hydrochloride."

    Type B that they are referrring about here is the "glabra" species of licorice which is what you typically see sold at stores.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1941536
  15. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Rand, you wanted my take on this...(1) watch out for licorice...it lowers potassium and if you are on the methylation protocol you can use up more potassium from that too. My brother-in-law, a heart patient, died after eating a bag of licorice.

    You said you already took everything that Lotus suggests, but did you try BH4? You can get it from www.heartfixer.com. I notice no effect from it BUT I genetically need it, I am ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE
    I need it (my father died of insufficient BH4), but the OTC dose is too low prolly to actually feel it. Still,
    I figure better some than none to WARD OFF future problems. Like taking antioxidants - you can't feel them (except you can feel those too...if you have a cut and it stings, you don't have enough antioxidants because they quench the sting).

    On to copper. I have stated my opinion many times. I actually read TONS of studies on copper when I was diagnosed low in copper by www.traceelements.com, since I knew nothing about it. The problem is that there IS NO WAY to reliably judge copper status but liver biopsy...there is even a study paper calling for development of an accurate way to test copper status and going over the shortcomings of each method. Thus most of the studies regarding copper are wrong. Many studies claim elevated copper causes blotty blotty and you see they determined copper from serum. Copper is an acute phase reactant so the body steals it from tissues to place in the blood for many, MANY conditions: inflammation, hormone levels, OTC meds like laxatives, etc. So most studies degenerate to: we found that all people with cancer have high copper levels (duh! the copper level in the blood is just another confirmation of cancer, NOT indicative of copper levels in the body).

    The problem with insufficient copper is that you die of aneurism. As stated above, copper is required for lysl oxidase which is required for cross linking of collagen. W/o lysl oxidase, it is like building a brick house with the bricks stacked exactly on top of each other (not alternated), which is not strong. It is the cross-linking that makes skin thick and blood vessels strong. Your blood vessels have to be able to withstand tremendous force to pass tiny blood clots or they will burst. Copper deficiency also causes neuropathy. It causes thin skin - so if you find you cut yourself easily while shaving or from other minor irritations, that is a symptom of copper deficiency.

    I eat TONS of chocolate and yet I am copper deficient. I tried to figure out of the www.traceelements.com test is accurate and I decided to trust it to a certain extent BECAUSE (1) it did NOT show me low in copper at age 45, but only at age 51 (2) at age 45 I had thick skin, hard to cut and at age 51 my thin became thin and easy to cut (3) at 45 I had no grey hair, but at 51 I started to get a little grey (4) at 52 I was diagnosed with osteopenia (bone also requires copper, although that is not the only thing it requires...I also started taking vitamin K2). See http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=5154620 (In that paper it reports on a study showing that 1000mg Ca, 15mg zinc, 5mg copper, and 2,5mg manganese INCREASES bone mass). The only thing unusual in that stack is the high copper.

    After all my reading and trying to apply it to my own situation I came up with the following belief: generally young people are either high in copper or normal in copper because it APPEARS that estrogen (and I speculate testosterone) helps you absorb copper. Determining high or normal is beyond my interest (this stuff takes a lot of digging) because I am over 50. For women over 40-50 and men over 60-70 the question becomes 'nrmal or not enough?' Then I look at skin thickness, easy of sustaining injury, hair color, bone density to make a guess, but rely on www.traceelements.com testing.

    Tracelements has a paper at their website (by Paul Eck, I believe) listing all the things that interfere with copper absorption, and there are many. I have to assume the study above regarding bone mass did not segregate copper out separately from the calcium and zinc, both of which interfere with copper absorption, bring the actualy copper absorbed way down. So if you have lower hormone levels and take copper, prolly 3 mg will do it alone or 5mg with all the rest of your supplements. (That's what I do).

    Now regarding zinc: copper ratio...I do not believe there is a ratio, at least as far as INTAKE is concerned. I find, due to extreme and many allergies, that we can WHIP THROUGH ZINC but not copper. I find that when I have an allergy or cold I need 75-150mg zinc to be able to breathe. These things destroy mucous membranes and it takes zinc and protein to rebuild them. From what I was able to determine copper is not so destroyed. There is no need for more copper than the 3-5mg you take if you are older, there may be a need for QUITE A LOT more zinc.

    P.S. I was interested to see that you quote a site that does not rely on serum copper. Unfortunately their method of measuring copper has not been validated by the medical community and I have no idea if they've got it right. I am distrubed by their generalizations which do not take into consideration the effect that hormones have on copper absorption, which appears to be great.
  16. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    hi triff

    Thanks for the warning on the licorice. Do you know what link I choose on the heartfixer site? I see no "products" link. Also, is the BH4 the same 2.5 mg tabs that nutramedical sells? If so, I bought some of this awhile back. May not have been taking enough but didn't notice anything from it. Maybe I would have if I went crazy high on the dosage but by doing that, I'd burn a hole in my wallet in no time...

    http://www.nutrimedical.com/products.jhtml?method=view&product.id=4013

    I've been taking some extra steps lately with OKG as far as trying to knock out some ammonia to spare some BH4, so it may be helping to some degree but certainly don't notice anything from it.

    I'm somewhat confused what you said above about the copper. First you say that a liver biopsy is the only way to accurately judge someone's copper status but then you go on to say you are trusting that other test that you had? It's great if you know you feel better by taking extra copper and I'm not disputing that, but what you said is a bit contradictory.

    At the end of your post when you said....

    "There is no need for more copper than the 3-5mg you take if you are older, there may be a need for QUITE A LOT more zinc."

    Are you actually saying that someone who is older..me being 56 should "supplement" this extra copper over and above what they already get in their diet? If that is what you're saying, then I guess you are disagreeing with the acu-cell guy's viewpoint correct? I mean I don't know this guy from a hole in the ground and he could be a quack for all I know, but I would just tend to believe him over what you hear other nutritionists say. Also, I know that MAO is a copper dependant enzyme, and who knows, any extra copper could be working against me since I'm thinking I need to inhibit these more than contributing to their production. Also because of what you said about zinc, right now I'm doing 30mg's per day, think I should up that back up to the 60mg's I was taking before?

    Rand
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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  18. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I thought methylation was supposed to solve any issues with BH4.
  19. antherder

    antherder Senior Member

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    Hi Rand56,

    This fits with what I have read about zinc as people who have the genetic copper storage disorder, Wilson's Disease, are only given zinc (usually as zinc acetate or zinc gluconate) as a maintenance therapy once the excess copper has been removed by chelating agents.

    I would be very wary about supplementing with copper. I think it's a good idea to check your ceruloplasmin levels first, and to look at how much copper you are actually getting in your diet. I was told that my test results mean I must have a dietary deficiency of copper, but I don't. I get plenty of the stuff, I'm just not binding it all for some reason. The more copper rich foods I eat, the worse I feel.

    I did read a case online awhile ago about overuse of zinc causing a copper deficiency resulting in neuropathy, but you have to take a lot of zinc for that to happen.
  20. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    hi antherder

    Thanks for that info. It is interesting what triff said above about estrogen possibly helping you to absorb more copper. I wonder if this would also apply to men who are "above normal" on their estrogen levels? If so, I'm guessing that probably the majority of older mens E levels are above normal which would even make for a stronger case not to supplement extra copper? I don't know. I don't know as much about this stuff as some of you other people do.

    Rand

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