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Copper Dumping

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by arx, Jun 17, 2013.

  1. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I want to know what symptoms people have experienced after taking zinc. After taking 50 mg zinc for three days,I experienced much worsening. More over-stimulation,racing thoughts,disorientation,headaches,and nausea. Is this because of the copper dumping?
    I would like to know your experience.
    Thanks.
  2. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    Zinc will increase immune system activity (inflammation). It is also an aromatase inhibitor. Zinc is not an efficient chelator of copper, although it can inhibit copper uptake if taken at the same time.
  3. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    But zinc is a known antagonist. People write about zinc picolinate and chelate to be used with high copper levels,and not synthetic chelators..
  4. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    This info backs up what adreno just said....

    "There are other copper antagonists such as zinc, however while zinc is generally documented as such in the nutritional literature, it is not only the weakest of copper antagonists, but it's action on copper takes place only on an intestinal level, so once copper goes into storage, zinc will have no effect on lowering copper any longer."

    http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html
    Valentijn and adreno like this.
  5. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    If you were to take zinc with every meal, you would gradually lower your copper levels by inhibiting its uptake from food. No copper dumping will occur though, besides natural excretion. You will also change your zinc/copper ratio, which might be more important than your copper status itself. Minerals seems to work in antagonistic ratios.
    Valentijn likes this.
  6. arx

    arx Senior Member

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  7. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    arx
    Hi there, I noticed that before I started taking hydroxyB12, and folinic acid in large-ish doses that I was able to tolerate Zinc much more.

    Zinc is a precursor to methylation process, as well I just learned from Adreno's post above re: increase immune system activity (inflammation) - thanks for that one! it could definitely explain some of my symptoms too!

    I had to wean myself off of a bunch of things first when I started taking the B12/folinic acid, as I found that the cofactors pushed me into overmethylation quite quickly. I'm now slowly, very slowly, building them back in. I have, however, found that red meat has become my best friend. It works really well for me. Apparently it has the best balance between zinc/copper.

    These are the symptoms I experienced too. I am experimenting with forms (i.e. chelate, citrate, byglicinate & doses - starting at like 5mg). I do think there is a copper element to it, but the racing thoughts could also be related to a glutamate/gaba imbalance as well, and just plain overmethylation.

    I am quite sensitive to high copper foods personally, they make my mind race. So that's why I think there is something to the copper dumping theory in your case. I would get some stability with the methylation core supplements first, and then look @ doing chelation. Copper toxicity is really related to mercury in my research, and they say not to chelate until your mouth is mercury free. I'm going for a consult at a holistic dentist this week, yay, to make plans to remove my last filling.

    I'm still researching what chelation agents to use & am visiting my naturopath tomorrow to discuss plan. I'm sensitive to sulphur so chorella, and ALA, and DMSO are out. I am thinking of cilantro, zeolite, and I am just reading up on diatomaceous earth. I agree with what the other posters said above re: antagonist role of zinc versus being a strong chelator in itself.

    All the best,
    S:)
  8. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    I think zinc may definitely still affect copper somehow, though. As far as I've read, they currently suspect that copper has something to do with why people get vertigo from high doses of zinc.

    That's the case for me. Even with fairly low levels of zinc, I get vertigo. No idea why, though.

    You may have considered this already, but I will say that 50mg/day of zinc seems like quite a high dose. I believe it's even 10mg higher than the recommended limit for daily intake. I know that sometimes doctors will temporarily recommend a higher dose if someone is deficient to start with, but it still might be a lot for your body to handle. I can tolerate about 12mg per day if it's spread out, but 15mg at one time gives me double vision and makes my head spin. Maybe a lower dose or a dose spread over the day might help you.
    Crux, Little Bluestem and Star-Anise like this.
  9. SoniaR

    SoniaR

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    Hi,

    Would anyone know if a doctor who is B12 aware in New Delhi India. My son has neurological symptoms due to B12 deficiancy and I am struggling with finding a doctor who understands B12. I have met a number of senior neurologists but without success.
  10. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Hi Sonia,

    I live in New Delhi. I was and still am also facing neurpsych symptoms maybe due to B12 deficiency,which my family doctor,a GP had got tested me for.My level was 150..
    I followed Fred's protocol from this forum,but couldn't handle it. B12 did give some help to me. I also showed a neurologist in Gurgaon, who is good but he diagnosed me with neurotransmitter imbalance,since I had psych symptoms. So I only know of him, I think he knows about B12 ,even though he denied my symptoms as a result of B12 deficiency. He is Dr. Praveen Gupta in Artemis,Gurgaon.

    His website is here. You'll have to call Artemis to get an appointment with him.

    I tell you this because I saw some articles in newspapers about B12 like this which are written by him..so I think he should know about B12..

    What are your son's symptoms and what diagnoses has he received from the neurologists you've met?
  11. SoniaR

    SoniaR

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    Hi Arx,

    My 26 year old son has had symptoms of Sub Acute Combined Degeneration of the spinal cord for the past 3 years. He has been seen by 15 neurologists in New Delhi. While 14 of them said there is nothing wrong with him, one doctor diagnosed that these are symptoms of B12 deficiency - SACD as we are vegetarians. When his symptoms started his serum B12 level was 294 (which according to the consulting doctor is drastically low as in Japan even 500 is considered low) and his D3-25H level was only 3.2. His primary symptoms are:
    1. Loss of proprioception in legs and arms - symptom intensifies on bending/ turning of back and neck - says he gets this "disconnected" feeling as if his arms and legs are not connected to his body. In fact his symptoms started with this feeling. Constant unsteadiness followed.
    2. Constant unsteadiness/ dizziness - symptom intensifies on bending/ turning of back and neck. It is not vertigo, just a constant feeling of unsteadiness. However this is not apparent to an outsider. There is no visible ataxia. Also, we have seen an ENT specialist and have ruled out an ear related cause.
    3. Weakness in arms and legs - difficult carrying heavy weights/ bags which he could easily do earlier.
    4. Neck stiffness- loss of full range of motion - finds it difficult to turn fully and look back while parking a car. Also loss of curvature of neck.
    5. General fatigue
    6. Positive Romberg's test - he is very unsteady with his eyes closed.

    We have done MRI scans (without contrast) in 1.5 Tesla of his head, cervical,spine when his symptoms began and then 12 months later in 3 Tesla (head, cervical, thoracic and lumber spine without contrast) and all MRIs are normal. His Nerve conduction study too was normal. We also did all three evoked potentials and they too were normal.

    He has been on B12 & D3 supplementation since the past 2.5 years - B12 (Methylcobalamin) injections - 500 mcg injection intra-muscular once or twice a week and sub-lingual Methylcobalamin lozanges (Jarrow). He is now more than 50% better. After the initial 6 months, improvement has been very slow. The symptoms do get better when the frequency of injections is increased.
  12. SoniaR

    SoniaR

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  13. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Did you mention SACD,B12 and methylation to him? What was his response?


    Dr. Gupta's treatment did help me with many issues,but also didn't help me with many other issues.
    Your son and I have a very different symptom history.
    I never read any side effects when starting a medicine,or in fact anything about it.When I feel something changing for the worse or better,then I start my research about that medicine.
    Mind can mask the truth.
    You will find people worshiping the very existence of such neuro and psych drugs,and you will find people who hate them.
    I think it's like finding your own cocktail,in this pharma world. It's pretty much trial and error,with a doctor to help you!
    The B12 world is an arduous journey. The researcher,doctor,and the patient is a single person. It's excellent that you are doing all this for your son. My father also did this for many months. It took me many months to sort of actually understand what and why I was taking the supplements and come to interact on this forum.

    Good to know! I hope Fred's protocol works out for you. May I ask which doctor you are mentioning,who treats Autistic children with B12 injections?

    I've only heard of Dr. Yasko and Dr. Ben Lynch in the B12 and MTHFR world. Ben Lynch's website has excellent podcasts and videos.

    If you're diving deep into methylation,there is a MTHFR test at Dr. Lal Path Labs,but I don't know what it investigates. I've heard of the much in demand 23andMe test, and geneticgenie.org and many other tools which give methylation and detox analysis in Yasko's format. But then again,23andMe doesn't ship to India.

    There are some useful groups on facebook,for nutrition,methylation,B12,and neuro issues. I'll share some links here.All are closed groups,I think. Your privacy will be protected,and posts won't show in friends' news feeds. Facebook has many more groups,and I hope you search one for SACD.

    Phoenix Rising undoubtedly remains the best resource for Fred's Protocol,and many other things. You must interact with Fred himself. I've had many discussions with him.


    https://www.facebook.com/groups/mthfr.support.education/

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/supportforneuropathy/

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/174928999276739/

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/148288765299635/

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/655423737818837/

    I think you should share your son's story here on Phoenix Rising,as well as Facebook.
    Maybe you find someone suffering similar symptoms? Create a thread on this B12 forum,or in the Community section. This 'Copper Dumping' thread won't get many/any views.

    A good video by Ben Lynch:




    I wish we could have met earlier when I was experimenting and involved in the B12 world. I am not anymore. I hope I've shared something useful with you.

    Wishing you and your son the very best!
  14. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Also,if injections are helping, why not increase their frequency? Or maybe try more sublinguals,which might prove to be more potent?
  15. SoniaR

    SoniaR

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    Hi Arx, We did discuss SACD, B12 and Methylation with Dr. Gupta but he said the symptoms due to B12 deficiency should have been cured with B12 injections. The fact that he is still not 100% o.k. is due to neurotransmitter imbalance. I do not buy this theory as my son has typical symptoms of SACD.

    I always check out any medical preescription before taking the medicine. As a mother I think one tends to be overprotective about one's child. Besides, I have noticed that doctors often look at the problem, not the patient as a whole. Most of them do not care to check for allergies, drug interactions etc because they are extremely busy. My friend's kid developed a permanent speech problem because his neuro prescribed a medicine which had this horrible side effect. Incidently there was a better drug available in the market which did not have this side effect but my friend did not know this and now it's too late.

    The doctor who is running a program for treating Autistic children (as per Dr. Neubrander’s protocol) with B12 injections is Dr. Deepak Gupta. He has a clinic in R-92 (basement) GK 1. The contact no. is 011-41733340/ 42. Please see this website:
    http://www.childpsychiatryindia.com/page.php?id=17

    We have increased the frequency of injections. My son is also taking sublingual Jarrow MB12 and Dibencozide along with other co-factors. The problem with increasing the frequency of injections is that the cofactors get depleted and it is not so effective anymore. Also, my son discovered that if both MB 12 and Dibencozide are taken together (sublingually) there are no side effects of Dibencozide. If taken alone, in my son's case he would feel very fatigued and low.

    Thanks for all the links you have sent. We will take your advice and post on other forums and facebook etc.
    arx likes this.
  16. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    I got my 24-hour urine test back and they said they could not do the test because the copper levels were too low to be detected (reference 15-60, no units given).

    I have been on a protocol for 6 months that includes 1 mg MTHF and 5 mg MB12, plus lots of other things - beta carotene, P5P, 3g C, 6000-10000 IU D, 800 IU E, chelated multi-minerals, branch chain amino acids, Co-Q10 and some other things. Could this protocol have made me dump copper?

    The test was done and then I changed my protocol: The last 3 months I have had donut-hole MTHF deficiency symptoms, so the last 3 weeks I've upped my MTHF (I got some relief, then no, so I'm doing 2-3 days at 30 mg), added folinic acid, adenosylB12, carnitine, ribose, and NADH 5 mg. Are these changes making my copper go even lower?

    I started this journey Jan 2013 because I could rarely breath through my nose and my lung function would go down to 80% of my highest values, but I wasn't responding to the meds (except side effects!) that are normally used for COPD. The problem started after a cold that went to my chest. I identified some food triggers, (dairy, tomatoes, spinach, peppers, oats, wine - not testing beer due to an anaphylactic response in 1997) but could never get quite back to normal. We identified muscle wasting, low thyroid, low hormones (from pregnenelone to cortisol and DHEA to estrogen- all low), MTHFR 1298 hetero, and B6 deficiency. We didn't do other genetic tests, and I have not been back to share my 23andMe results with my nurse practitioner.

    Thanks largely to the helpful and informative posts here , I have been reading about histamine intolerance, DAO, copper deficiency, and it seems that it all is starting to fit. That maybe whatever upset me Jan 2012, was all centered around this constellation.

    I found this on copper:
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/88/3/859S.long
    It seems for urine copper to show low, it has to be an extreme deficiency. Have any of you had this happen? What was your solution. Note I am not going to copy what you did, just use it as reference when I talk to my nurse practitioner on Tuesday (3 days from now).

    Thanks
  17. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    If you're taking much Zinc, it can prevent Copper from being absorbed.
  18. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Thanks, Valentijn,

    I just went through all my supplements this morning and added it up. I've been taking 3 mg of copper and 45 mg of zinc for the last 6 months, exactly the 15:1 ratio of zinc to copper that's recommended.

    I was thinking that maybe the 3000 mg of Vitamin C that I've been taking during that time may have contributed to copper clearing. But my problem started a year before that. At that time I had 3 10-day doses of Levaquin, with 10-day doses of Doxycycline and Augmentin between the first and second dose of Levaquin. I think I need to research whether copper depletion is a side effect of one of these drugs.
  19. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I just want to step in and say that no one knows what the correct zinc:copper ratio is (who recommends 45:3? A common multi vitamin ratio is 15:1.5-2 but that is only a GUESS!). There are several factor at play here--one is that there is no accepted way to MEASURE copper status EXCEPT via liver biopsy (which is never done). Serum copper, which is often used, is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to copper status as the body steals copper from needed tissues to put it in the blood stream for all sorts of things, including inflammation, OTC products including laxatives, hormone changes, etc. In fact, one person may need a significantly different zinc: copper ratio than another.
    .Supposedly estrogen helps us absorb copper so younger people tend to have enough or even too much copper, whereas older people tend to have less or too little. I go by symptoms myself. If I don't take enough copper I won't have any wound healing, vs. wounds heal overnight (JUST LIKE A YOUNG PERSON'S). Low copper causes nail chipping (needed for cross-linking of collagen), and that is an external symptom of something that could be going on in your blood vessels (in other words, low copper makes you prone to aneurism). Low copper causes thin skin, easily nicked. These are just a few f the symptoms. But a significant copper deficiency causes inability to walk - a neuralgia just like a B12 deficiency. Look up the lawsuits filed against some denture grip company that put zinc in their cream and caused copper deficiencies in those that used it.

    I'm just saying, don't be so sure there is "magic ratio" and that you can thus rule out zinc/copper problems.
    Zinc revs up the thyroid which is why some people can get racing from it - depends on your thyroid. I cannot ever seem to get enough zinc because it gets used up rebuilding skin destroyed by my allergies so I have never experienced this myself.

    I use the hair analysis from www.evenbetternow.com which sends hair to www.traceelements.com for copper status. idk if it's really accurate. It seems accurate in my case, but medical science simply has not decided on a good measure of copper status yet.
    whodathunkit likes this.
  20. Rlman

    Rlman

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    your symptoms do sound like copper dumping, see threads on curezsone by Feo66 and Laredo if you want to read about similar experiences
    Star-Anise likes this.

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