• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Continous side effect: Cold hands and feet/freezing

Leopardtail

Senior Member
Messages
1,151
Location
England
@2manyhobbies, my Zinc serum last time I checked was 14,1 umol/L which isnt very low I guess? I'm not sure what optimal would be though since I cannot find anything about that on the internet. But the thing about absorption issues sounds interesting since I've had gut problems for a long time.


@Leopardtail, you are probably right about the start slow and go slow scenario. Maybe I've gone too fast again. But the reason for this however, is the paradoxical folate defiency which I believe I find myself to be in at times (getting symptoms for it). Thats why I raised the dose of folate and along with that, B12 too. Some days I've raised with about 2 mg of folate and maybe thats a bit too radical for my body to handle. About the B-complex, I've read from Freddd about certain b-vitamins (like B1 and B2) creating a greater need for folate, thats why I only took half of the capsule as well as the niacin content.

The pale skin is beginning on the top of my fingernails (which turn a bit blue) and then goes down only half a finger. Checked my feets at one time and they were a bit blue and pale, nothing extreme but noticable. Maybe a little bit pale in my face as well. Btw just took ~120 mg of Niacin which got me flushed, now I'm sitting here with slightly cold extremites again, hmpf. Havn't taken my supplements for the day yet though.

I do suffer from increased urination & thirst but has been like this for a long time. Feels like I dont get enough water, or I have to drink to not get dehydrated. Actually I think this has settled down a bit since starting the methylation. But I urinate like 10+ times a day.
The body rightly thinks that the heart and lungs are more important than the finger tips, if you de-hydrate it rations blood flow to the extremities in order to keep oxygen supply around the vital organs. If this is severe enough to cause blue fingers then you need first to rule out primary disease affecting urination and blood volume. The three obvious ones are in order: diabetes lipidus, Hypoaldosteronism, hypothyroidism.

Do you know how near average your serum sodium and serum potassium are? What is your thyroid function like?
Have you tried the effect of adding Salt, Vitamin C or both to your water?


There are swings and roundabouts with B-Vitamins. You need both B2 and B3 to naturally create active folates, but yes very large amounts can deplete Methylation. On the other hand very high doses of Folate/B12 can deplete B2 enough to create nerve damage and with vast numbers of other symptoms. With the very high doses of B12 and Folate you were taking, it seems very likely that a full tablet is far from adequate.

Be aware too that very low ATP can create massive amounts of urination, hence the symptom may equally be ATP and Methylation related as well. I concur with @Hip here, you need to sort out your ATP supplements first, then layer Methylation on top. Opinion is divided though, Freddd prefers to make Methylation his priority so you really do need to 'see what work for you'.

If you are gong to do Methylation in isolation and take very high doses of B9, I would strongly ask you to contact Fredd and ensure you do not cause defiency in other vitamins.

Either way blue fingers very definitely equals a conversation with your doctor and proper medical investigation before taking further action.
 
Messages
62
The body rightly thinks that the heart and lungs are more important than the finger tips, if you de-hydrate it rations blood flow to the extremities in order to keep oxygen supply around the vital organs. If this is severe enough to cause blue fingers then you need first to rule out primary disease affecting urination and blood volume. The three obvious ones are in order: diabetes lipidus, Hypoaldosteronism, hypothyroidism.

Do you know how near average your serum sodium and serum potassium are? What is your thyroid function like?
Have you tried the effect of adding Salt, Vitamin C or both to your water?


There are swings and roundabouts with B-Vitamins. You need both B2 and B3 to naturally create active folates, but yes very large amounts can deplete Methylation. On the other hand very high doses of Folate/B12 can deplete B2 enough to create nerve damage and with vast numbers of other symptoms. With the very high doses of B12 and Folate you were taking, it seems very likely that a full tablet is far from adequate.

Be aware too that very low ATP can create massive amounts of urination, hence the symptom may equally be ATP and Methylation related as well. I concur with @Hip here, you need to sort out your ATP supplements first, then layer Methylation on top. Opinion is divided though, Freddd prefers to make Methylation his priority so you really do need to 'see what work for you'.

If you are gong to do Methylation in isolation and take very high doses of B9, I would strongly ask you to contact Fredd and ensure you do not cause defiency in other vitamins.

Either way blue fingers very definitely equals a conversation with your doctor and proper medical investigation before taking further action.

That makes sense. I have reoccuring side-effects with my breathing as well which actually gotten worse last days now, exactly the same problem I had last time doing methylation. I had to quit because of it. The breathing problems mainly triggers when I eat something, immediately, or half past through my lunch/snack. I experience problems with swallowing and pretty severe shortness of breath. This has increased the last couple of days. Sometimes I need to take a couple of big breaths in order to "calm myself" making sure i dont swallow the wrong way. Seems maybe that I could have a lack of oxygen and that the body directs that to the heart and lungs as you say? Even though its not enough. I know this sounds serious and it probably is. Yesterday I had pretty profound problems making me reevaulate what the hell i'm doing.

Last time I checked my sodium and potassium (this was when I've just stopped methylation) they were:
Sodium: 138 mmol/L
Potassium: 3,7 mmol/L

Being a guy 180/75 kg this, to me, sounds pretty low? Notice that this was after supplementing 1000-2000 mg/potassium per day too. I had 3,8 mmol/L of potassium precisly before I started methylation supps for the first time. For the salt, I've been drinking some in water for the last week actually, I feel it may help a little bit, not sure on how much to take, you got any recommendation on whats safe? For the Vitamin C, I havent really taken much in supplemental way past months. But when I did, maybe 2-3000 mg, I had a period of Gout attacks (my Uric acid was very high 486 umol/L). Read that high doses of vitamin C could contribute to that, thats why I'm a bit scared of using it right now.

I'm not sure on my thyroid function other than, about 1,5 years ago a test came out fine. Not sure at all what they tested though as I dont have the papers. Could probably get them if I ask for it. As for the B-vitamins, it seems kind of tricky with the balances as you mention. I might try 2 capsules for a time and see if things improve.

As for ATP, I havnt looked at it too much but my energy levels has surely lowered last couple of years, maybe worth looking into. I'm taking LCF (500 mg) and Adb12 @ 4 mg per day. Though this would be enough to get ATP going again (if I really have a problem in this area).

FYI, this is all the side effects I experience as of right now (on a daily basis), some worse than others. Some of these, mainly the muscle pains/aches have been pronounced even before methylation:

Cold hands/feet, breathing problems/shortness of breath/trouble swallowing when eating, random fatigues/energy drops at various times, muscle pain, ache in joints/calfs (inflammation I guess), stiff muscles, GI-issues like IBS, fast transition times (some days 4 times a day), skin and hair problems (dry hair and irritated/red skin, occasional rashes).

On the other hand I experience a lot of benefits as well, mental health has improved quite a bit as an example. Also, my biceps/triceps muscles on my right arm is really increasing and getting stronger, and I'm not even working out! A solid evidence that some things are working at least :)
 
Last edited:

Critterina

Senior Member
Messages
1,238
Location
Arizona, USA
Anybody have a clue if Histamine intolerance could cause these symptoms? I had pretty severe breathing problems last time I did methylation as well, triggered at different times but mostly when I ate something. Experiencing some of that right now too. Theorizing about mast cell issues. I know driving up the methylation cycle could increase histamine but on the other hand it should detoxify and decrease it as well..

Hah! Good question, @kraken !

I've been working hard on my histamine intolerance issues, and I too have respiratory symptoms from them. I've theorized about mast cells, cytokines, leucotrienes, and such, and although I find tenuous links, there is no hard science that I have found. I also find that vasoconstrictors (caffeine, theophylline, and pseudoephedrine) that help with the breathing are the culprits for the cold extremities. What you describe sounds like vasoconstriction more than thyroid (although I'm not sure the two are unrelated, but I have both, so how can I tell?) Remember that tea has a double-whammy: histamine AND theophylline - a sure way to make you miserable. Have I shared with you my list of foods for histamine intolerance? PM me if you want it.

You said that one thing was maybe a bit high on your thyroid. If it was TSH, that would be telling. Unfortunately, there are a whole lot of opinions on when to treat. The lab reference ranges generally go to 4.5 or 5, but some practitioners believe that includes lots of people with hypothyroid and treat when it gets above 3, or even 2. Please check to see if that was the "slightly elevated" and if so, what it was.

Frequent urination and thirst makes me wonder about your adrenal medulla and whether you have enough aldosterone. One way to check this is, when you're not having swelling from histamine intolerance (which for me can be 6-9 extra pounds that appear overnight), weigh yourself after your first urination in the morning. Limit yourself to 8 cups of fluid that day, but eat normally. Weigh yourself again after the first urination the next morning. If you drop a couple of pounds, talk to your endocrinologist (and if you don't have one, get one) about a test.

That's my free advice worth every penny you paid for it.

Critterina
 

Leopardtail

Senior Member
Messages
1,151
Location
England
That makes sense. I have reoccuring side-effects with my breathing as well which actually gotten worse last days now, exactly the same problem I had last time doing methylation. I had to quit because of it. The breathing problems mainly triggers when I eat something, immediately, or half past through my lunch/snack. I experience problems with swallowing and pretty severe shortness of breath. This has increased the last couple of days. Sometimes I need to take a couple of big breaths in order to "calm myself" making sure i dont swallow the wrong way. Seems maybe that I could have a lack of oxygen and that the body directs that to the heart and lungs as you say? Even though its not enough. I know this sounds serious and it probably is. Yesterday I had pretty profound problems making me reevaulate what the hell i'm doing.

Last time I checked my sodium and potassium (this was when I've just stopped methylation) they were:
Sodium: 138 mmol/L
Potassium: 3,7 mmol/L

Being a guy 180/75 kg this, to me, sounds pretty low? Notice that this was after supplementing 1000-2000 mg/potassium per day too. I had 3,8 mmol/L of potassium precisly before I started methylation supps for the first time. For the salt, I've been drinking some in water for the last week actually, I feel it may help a little bit, not sure on how much to take, you got any recommendation on whats safe? For the Vitamin C, I havent really taken much in supplemental way past months. But when I did, maybe 2-3000 mg, I had a period of Gout attacks (my Uric acid was very high 486 umol/L). Read that high doses of vitamin C could contribute to that, thats why I'm a bit scared of using it right now.

I'm not sure on my thyroid function other than, about 1,5 years ago a test came out fine. Not sure at all what they tested though as I dont have the papers. Could probably get them if I ask for it. As for the B-vitamins, it seems kind of tricky with the balances as you mention. I might try 2 capsules for a time and see if things improve.

As for ATP, I havnt looked at it too much but my energy levels has surely lowered last couple of years, maybe worth looking into. I'm taking LCF (500 mg) and Adb12 @ 4 mg per day. Though this would be enough to get ATP going again (if I really have a problem in this area).

FYI, this is all the side effects I experience as of right now (on a daily basis), some worse than others. Some of these, mainly the muscle pains/aches have been pronounced even before methylation:

Cold hands/feet, breathing problems/shortness of breath/trouble swallowing when eating, random fatigues/energy drops at various times, muscle pain, ache in joints/calfs (inflammation I guess), stiff muscles, GI-issues like IBS, fast transition times (some days 4 times a day), skin and hair problems (dry hair and irritated/red skin, occasional rashes).

On the other hand I experience a lot of benefits as well, mental health has improved quite a bit as an example. Also, my biceps/triceps muscles on my right arm is really increasing and getting stronger, and I'm not even working out! A solid evidence that some things are working at least :)
You serum Potassium and Sodium are both low in the normal range. Your doctors is more likely to act if one is high and one low. Vitamin C is vital to adrenal function, one of your hormones that retains water is made there. Also uric acid is a natural anti oxidant, more vitamin C should lower requirement and Myhill recommends 2 to 3 g per day to get your uric acid down. If you find yourself craving citrus fruits or their juice you are likely to need more Vitamin C, that might also be the case if you crave sweet stuff. If you crave bananas, or Potatoes, there is chance you are lacking Potassium.

In your position (muscle symptoms etc) I would take Potassium & Magnesium Aspartate to get enough into your muscles available on iHerb. I would also take your water boiled and cooled (no Chlorine etc) with a pinch of salt and 1g of Vitamin C. The amount of Salt is right when you are least thirsty, too much you will urinate, too little you will urinate. If my blood pressure became to high, I would back off on the salt. Salt increases blood pressure by raising blood volume, that is what I suspect you want.

Look up B2 deficiency and you will find rashes are a symptom, if that does not settle with the above, you may need to try it. I like the sublingal R5P at iherb again.
 
Messages
62
Thanks for the advice @Critterina. I have no idea if I really have histamine issues other than symptoms. Asked for a histamine test but the doc did a garbage allergy test that doesn´t show anything. He didn't even know blood histamine tests existed, i havn't had any luck finding competent doctors to be honest. But your document sounds handy, i'll pm you. I'll have to look up that thyroid test too, even though it might be a bit old.

So you can retain water from histamine intolerance? Thats been my case until I started taking active folates and B12, lost a lot of water. Could be a theory then. I seem to have lost a lot of water for now, and its been alright since being on the methyl supps so I dont know if I will retain water as long as i'm on a steady dose of them. I did however find that when I stopped the supplements, particulary folate, I would start retain water in my joints/face again. I was simply thinking thinking folate defiency (dont think B12 would cause this). About that test you mention, have to buy a proper scale first :)

You serum Potassium and Sodium are both low in the normal range. Your doctors is more likely to act if one is high and one low. Vitamin C is vital to adrenal function, one of your hormones that retains water is made there. Also uric acid is a natural anti oxidant, more vitamin C should lower requirement and Myhill recommends 2 to 3 g per day to get your uric acid down. If you find yourself craving citrus fruits or their juice you are likely to need more Vitamin C, that might also be the case if you crave sweet stuff. If you crave bananas, or Potatoes, there is chance you are lacking Potassium.

In your position (muscle symptoms etc) I would take Potassium & Magnesium Aspartate to get enough into your muscles available on iHerb. I would also take your water boiled and cooled (no Chlorine etc) with a pinch of salt and 1g of Vitamin C. The amount of Salt is right when you are least thirsty, too much you will urinate, too little you will urinate. If my blood pressure became to high, I would back off on the salt. Salt increases blood pressure by raising blood volume, that is what I suspect you want.

Look up B2 deficiency and you will find rashes are a symptom, if that does not settle with the above, you may need to try it. I like the sublingal R5P at iherb again.

Thanks for your suggestions, I will try them. I never crave citrus fruits really, but sweet stuff - yeah. Mostly chocolate. Never potatoes or bananas though. I'm a bit worried I have a hard time holding on to potassium as I didnt manage to increase my levels even when supplementing with 1000-2000 mg. Now there could be the explanation that my demand increased big time, but I find that unlikely with the amount I took, I might be wrong. Will look up the B2 defiency, read that bloodshot eyes could indicate that. I'm prone to it, and always have a lot of visible blood vessels in my eyes.

Paging @Freddd for some help regarding my issues, would be very appreciated. Mainly concerned about my breathing problems/shortness of breath and difficulty swallowing which mostly manifests when I eat. It has become more severe past days and not really sure how to tackle it, this was the thing that lead me to quit the methylation supplements last time.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Thanks for the advice @Critterina. I have no idea if I really have histamine issues other than symptoms. Asked for a histamine test but the doc did a garbage allergy test that doesn´t show anything. He didn't even know blood histamine tests existed, i havn't had any luck finding competent doctors to be honest. But your document sounds handy, i'll pm you. I'll have to look up that thyroid test too, even though it might be a bit old.

So you can retain water from histamine intolerance? Thats been my case until I started taking active folates and B12, lost a lot of water. Could be a theory then. I seem to have lost a lot of water for now, and its been alright since being on the methyl supps so I dont know if I will retain water as long as i'm on a steady dose of them. I did however find that when I stopped the supplements, particulary folate, I would start retain water in my joints/face again. I was simply thinking thinking folate defiency (dont think B12 would cause this). About that test you mention, have to buy a proper scale first :)



Thanks for your suggestions, I will try them. I never crave citrus fruits really, but sweet stuff - yeah. Mostly chocolate. Never potatoes or bananas though. I'm a bit worried I have a hard time holding on to potassium as I didnt manage to increase my levels even when supplementing with 1000-2000 mg. Now there could be the explanation that my demand increased big time, but I find that unlikely with the amount I took, I might be wrong. Will look up the B2 defiency, read that bloodshot eyes could indicate that. I'm prone to it, and always have a lot of visible blood vessels in my eyes.

Paging @Freddd for some help regarding my issues, would be very appreciated. Mainly concerned about my breathing problems/shortness of breath and difficulty swallowing which mostly manifests when I eat. It has become more severe past days and not really sure how to tackle it, this was the thing that lead me to quit the methylation supplements last time.


The shortness of breath can be serious but also appears to be connected to lack of sufficient AdoCbl/LCF. I've messaged you about the swallowing.

Water poured off of me too. I found that it is the first symptom to become apparent when I go into paradoxical folate deficiency. Then when I lose the excess water I get low potassium. The two seem tied together. It took the AdoCbl'/LCF and enough Metafolin for several years to get rid of the symptoms of Congestive Heart Failure, the muscle of the heart apparently improving with my muscles and the loss of all that extra 85 pounds of water.
 

Critterina

Senior Member
Messages
1,238
Location
Arizona, USA
Thanks for the advice @Critterina. I have no idea if I really have histamine issues other than symptoms. Asked for a histamine test but the doc did a garbage allergy test that doesn´t show anything. He didn't even know blood histamine tests existed, i havn't had any luck finding competent doctors to be honest. But your document sounds handy, i'll pm you. I'll have to look up that thyroid test too, even though it might be a bit old.

So you can retain water from histamine intolerance? Thats been my case until I started taking active folates and B12, lost a lot of water. Could be a theory then. I seem to have lost a lot of water for now, and its been alright since being on the methyl supps so I dont know if I will retain water as long as i'm on a steady dose of them. I did however find that when I stopped the supplements, particulary folate, I would start retain water in my joints/face again. I was simply thinking thinking folate defiency (dont think B12 would cause this). About that test you mention, have to buy a proper scale first :)
...
Thanks for your suggestions, I will try them. I never crave citrus fruits really, but sweet stuff - yeah. Mostly chocolate. Never potatoes or bananas though. I'm a bit worried I have a hard time holding on to potassium as I didnt manage to increase my levels even when supplementing with 1000-2000 mg. Now there could be the explanation that my demand increased big time, but I find that unlikely with the amount I took, I might be wrong. Will look up the B2 defiency, read that bloodshot eyes could indicate that. I'm prone to it, and always have a lot of visible blood vessels in my eyes.. Mainly concerned about my breathing problems/shortness of breath and difficulty swallowing which mostly manifests when I eat. It has become more severe past days and not really sure how to tackle it, this was the thing that lead me to quit the methylation supplements last time.

My pulmonologist and I didn't find a lab that will do the test for diamine oxidase (DAO) activity, which would be the genetics underlying histamine intolerance. (There is a bacterial component, too, since I was tolerant for 52 years, but believe I lost the bacteria with antibiotic use.) My diagnosis was based on elimination of histamine-containing foods resulting in elimination of symptoms and reintroduction of those foods resulting in recurrence of symptoms.

I guess it's water I'm retaining with the histamines. What else would cause that big a change in weight in a day or two? I'm certainly not ingesting enough calories to make muscle or fat. And it will often take 3-4 days without mistakes to resolve.

Chocolate (cocoa) has histamines. I can tolerate it a little, much more than cinnamon, but too much is a problem. Breathing problems when eating or after - those were my clues. I was having kombucha daily, and had switched to a continuous brew. I had been doing fine, then some kombucha, and my nose swelled shut and I couldn't take a deep breath. I'm not saying you are histamine intolerant, but there are enough signs that it is worth checking out. My food list is on another computer, but I'll send it. You have to be really strict with it, especially for me the cinnamon, aged, cultured, or fermented anything, meats that are cooked then refrigerated, and tomatoes, spinach, and peppers. I tolerate (or live with the consequences) when it comes to stone fruit and berries in moderation (2 strawberries, not a bowlful).
 
Messages
62
I wonder if the cold hands/feet and breathing problems has something to do with metal chelation/copper deficiency or maybe toxicity released due to methylation. Maybe a bit farfetched but the side-effects hasn't really reduced so still trying to figure this out. I've taken some Zinc the past years in doses around 20-40 mg with no copper, however, my blood zinc levels was in the middle of reference so I'm not actually high (which possible could tell a copper defiency).
 

Leopardtail

Senior Member
Messages
1,151
Location
England
I wonder if the cold hands/feet and breathing problems has something to do with metal chelation/copper deficiency or maybe toxicity released due to methylation. Maybe a bit farfetched but the side-effects hasn't really reduced so still trying to figure this out. I've taken some Zinc the past years in doses around 20-40 mg with no copper, however, my blood zinc levels was in the middle of reference so I'm not actually high (which possible could tell a copper defiency).
Zinc & Magnesium can induce deficiencies in each other....
 

pela

Senior Member
Messages
103
kraken, I wonder if you are hypothyroid. If you have not seen your lab results but been told "normal" you might be very hypo. The lab ranges for T4/T3 are kinda low. And you say you are taking T3? Are you selenium deficient? You need selenium to convert T4 to T3.
In my own experience, my free T3 needs to be at the top or slightly over the US lab range of 4.2 or I feel awful. And I couldn't tolerate T4 until I was well under way with Freddd's protocol of MB12, ADB12 and folate. When I switched from T3 only back to T4/T3 combo I felt much better. For me, adequate thyroid hormone and adequate B12 are equally important.
 
Messages
62
kraken, I wonder if you are hypothyroid. If you have not seen your lab results but been told "normal" you might be very hypo. The lab ranges for T4/T3 are kinda low. And you say you are taking T3? Are you selenium deficient? You need selenium to convert T4 to T3.
In my own experience, my free T3 needs to be at the top or slightly over the US lab range of 4.2 or I feel awful. And I couldn't tolerate T4 until I was well under way with Freddd's protocol of MB12, ADB12 and folate. When I switched from T3 only back to T4/T3 combo I felt much better. For me, adequate thyroid hormone and adequate B12 are equally important.

Thanks for the concern. I've checked up on the symptoms and it seems A LOT is matching up. For instance, my hair has (the last 4 years) become very dry and coarse, dont have a clue why even though trying high quality products. My skin is very dry and red/irritated/flaking. No products seems to help much in that area too. Generally pretty cold besides the hands/feet, body temperature standard is 36c. Libido = mostly gone tbh. Water retention in face, legs and ass. There's more on the list that adds up actually...

Think I'm gonna check it up! Too bad I read that generally the doctors isn't very good at diagnosing this kind of stuff where I live. What should I ask for more specifically? Are they measuring T3 and T4 blood levels?

I havnt tested for selenium, but maybe they can check that too :)
 

Leopardtail

Senior Member
Messages
1,151
Location
England
Thanks for the concern. I've checked up on the symptoms and it seems A LOT is matching up. For instance, my hair has (the last 4 years) become very dry and coarse, dont have a clue why even though trying high quality products. My skin is very dry and red/irritated/flaking. No products seems to help much in that area too. Generally pretty cold besides the hands/feet, body temperature standard is 36c. Libido = mostly gone tbh. Water retention in face, legs and ass. There's more on the list that adds up actually...

Think I'm gonna check it up! Too bad I read that generally the doctors isn't very good at diagnosing this kind of stuff where I live. What should I ask for more specifically? Are they measuring T3 and T4 blood levels?

I haven't tested for selenium, but maybe they can check that too :)
What are your bowels like? Constipation? Diarrhoea?

also Poor ATP production can mimic hypothyroidism.... are you taking any ATP related supplements?
 

pela

Senior Member
Messages
103
Think I'm gonna check it up! Too bad I read that generally the doctors isn't very good at diagnosing this kind of stuff where I live. What should I ask for more specifically? Are they measuring T3 and T4 blood levels?

I havnt tested for selenium, but maybe they can check that too :)

IMO the only thyroid test worth it is Free T3. TSH will be very suppressed if you take any T3,including that in Armour or any other natural desiccated thyroid. High T4 might mean several different things. Stop the Thyroid Madness is a good resource if you want to learn more: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com

You can become selenium deficient if you have malabsorption or if your food comes from selenium deficient regions.
 

Leopardtail

Senior Member
Messages
1,151
Location
England
IMO the only thyroid test worth it is Free T3. TSH will be very suppressed if you take any T3,including that in Armour or any other natural desiccated thyroid. High T4 might mean several different things. Stop the Thyroid Madness is a good resource if you want to learn more: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com

You can become selenium deficient if you have malabsorption or if your food comes from selenium deficient regions.
I don't quite agree with that.
At the very minimum you need Free T3 + Free T4 + TSH
Ideally I would also like to have SHBG + Prolactin
 
Messages
62
What are your bowels like? Constipation? Diarrhoea?

also Poor ATP production can mimic hypothyroidism.... are you taking any ATP related supplements?

My bowels have last years always leaned towards the loose side. Alternating between different degrees of diarrhea. For the ATP, i'm doing methylation which includes Adb12 (4 mg) and L-carnitine fumarate (500 mg).

@pela, thanks for the info! I'll check out that page. Might wanna go with as many tests as possible while i'm already at it? Anyways gonna read up on the subject. Will take some time to test myself and then recieve the results
 

Leopardtail

Senior Member
Messages
1,151
Location
England
My bowels have last years always leaned towards the loose side. Alternating between different degrees of diarrhea. For the ATP, i'm doing methylation which includes Adb12 (4 mg) and L-carnitine fumarate (500 mg).

@pela, thanks for the info! I'll check out that page. Might wanna go with as many tests as possible while i'm already at it? Anyways gonna read up on the subject. Will take some time to test myself and then recieve the results
I would expect to see constipation rather than loose stools with hypothyroidism, possibly also puffy ace, baggy eyes and so on...
Also if your ATP status is the primary issue, thyroid hormone would be like hitting the accelerator when the engine is struggling.
The CB10 & LCF, in my view, will prove antioxidant protection to your mitochondria but not greatly improve ATP status. Methylation is not the way to correct a primary ATP problem.

I agree with @Hip here: you should be taking CoQ10 (200-400mg/day), Carnitine (I Prefer ALCAR), Ribose @10g / day
I have kept that very basic, more info here. You may need to reduce your Methyl supps when the ATP stuff works as their effectiveness may increase.

Once you have the mito stuff in place, then check thyroid status.
 
Last edited:
Messages
62
I would expect to see constipation rather than loose stools with hypothyroidism, possibly also puffy ace, baggy eyes and so on...
Also if your ATP status is the primary issue, thyroid hormone would be like hitting the accelerator when the engine is struggling.
The CB10 & LCF, in my view, will prove antioxidant protection to your mitochondria but not greatly improve ATP status. Methylation is not the way to correct a primary ATP problem.

I agree with @Hip here: you should be taking CoQ10 (200-400mg/day), Carnitine (I Prefer ALCAR), Ribose @10g / day
I have kept that very basic, more info here. You may need to reduce your Methyl supps when the ATP stuff works as their effectiveness may increase.

Once you have the mito stuff in place, then check thyroid status.

Thank you for the advice! Well, puffy face is actually a symptom that I have and something that I really noticed reducing when trying methylfolate for the first time. Like hey wth my face maybe isn't normally like this "puffy and big". Googling a bit I read about water retention and facial puffiness and understood that my condition might not be normal at all. It usually gets better with some methylfolate but now it has come back (I have reduced the dose so thats probably why). I've noticed some baggy eyes for sure but not so obvious as my face. Water retention exists in my thighs as well as feet, "sock marks" is there most of the time.

I wonder if ATP could be a problem for me as you say, never really researched it but it sounds like something that I should lay more effort on. One thing thats clear is my energy levels which has dropped pretty severly the past years and I find myself gasping sometimes like 5+ times per hour which I doubt is anything but normal, even though getting enough sleep. Caffeine doesn't do the trick anymore.

For the CoQ10 I trialed it for a couple of days (100 mg) , but found it to make me even more fatigued? Also got some headache from it so eventually quit.

Still wondering about the thyroid, when reading about it here I looked up my genetics at MTHFRSupport.com, the report is based on segments with certain SNP groups (like Methylation, Thyroid etc). I found that I have two homozygous genes out of the 4 they list for Thyroid (they didn't find the third, i.e. no information).

CTLA4 +/+ (rs231775)
FOXE1 +/+ (rs1867277)
FOXE1 no call (rs7043516)
FOXE1 -/- (rs10984009)

I guess this has an impact/maybe could be a part of the equation