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Continous side effect: Cold hands and feet/freezing

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by kraken, Aug 14, 2014.

  1. kraken

    kraken

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    I restarted Freddds methylation plan once again after doing some work on my gut. Things seems to go better this time and I'm willing to push through (eventual) side effects in order to get healing going. Also taking more potassium as well as other co-factors which I believe could be my problem last time. As of now, i'm experiecing a continous side effect (for 2 weeks) at various times of the day and need some help identifying what it could be and how to approach it. I guess its best described as Anemia. My fingers and feet get very cold at various times of the day, typically mid-day. I can notice that my fingers is loosing skin colour as well, looking a bit pale. I find i'm feeling overall more cold in general too.

    My guess would be paradoxical folate defiency? but I'm not sure as I've read that certain B-vitamins can get unbalanced and result in a state like this too, I doubt i'm low on B12 though. Currently taking:

    Folate: 6-7 mg per day divided on 3-4 doses
    B12 (enzymatic): 4-5mg
    LCF: 500 mg
    ADB12: 3-4 mg
    Potassium: 1000-1500
    Mangnesium: 150-300 mg/day
    Zinc: 30 mg (every other day)
    Fish oil: 2 caps max DHA
    Vitamin C: 400 mg
    Vitamin E: 10 mg
    B-complex 1/2 capsule (a bit afraid of the high niacin content, I think the other B´s are balanced well?): http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Researc...US&w=thorne b right stress&rc=15&sr=null&ic=1

    Accompanied by this is some other side-effects which gotten better by rasing my folate dose: Edema (water retention in face/joints/ass), IBS issues and general problems with the digestive system (gotten a bit better).

    Another side effect is increasing inflammation, mostly felt in my joints/legs/calf muscles, like "growing pains" which I've seen mentioned here before. I wonder if its due to low folate or low potassium. This happens often when I increase my folate dose.

    Need some theories/advice on how to tackle the side effects, mostly the cold hands and feet as I believe that points to something more important to take care of :)
     
  2. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    Cold hands and feet are a sign of thyroid dysfunction.

    I don't know how to tell you to specifically address this, but I will say I've experienced quite a bit of temperature fluctuation over the course of this journey, especially in the beginning.

    After six months, things are much more even now. Although I don't have lab values, according to my symptoms a lot of my long-time chronic hormone problems seem to be getting better or even resolving themselves just from "staying the course" and not giving up on methylation, or flipping back and forth between wildly different dosages and supplements trying to ameliorate symptoms.

    Good luck. Hopefully Freddd or someone more knowledgeable than me will chime in. Just trying to let you know there's hope. :)
     
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  3. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    Hi, I don't really know how to take care of it, either. I am on T3 for hypothyroid problems caused by hormone conversion. My levels were checked recently and they are optimal. It seems to help some with the cold hands and feet. ATM my hands are warm.

    But it seems to me almost as if maybe what happens to me is a transient problem of my body not being able to use T3 correctly all the time... I get periods during the day where I get really cold and have hypo symptoms, and it's not unusual to find me huddled under a blanket in the middle of summer - especially if I am up moving around for a while. My energy falls away and I get cold. I sleep under the same amount of blankets in the summer and winter.
     
    merylg likes this.
  4. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Interesting thread, as I had the same cold hand/cold feet most of my life, then got put on thyroid, which brought my temps up about a degree (still low 97s). Then last February, 12 months after starting thyroid, I was having to put "hot hands" -those little iron filings packets in my shoes and pockets (for my hands) to get through the day.

    Now, with NO rationale, I remember that these things seemed to help with the cold hands/feet: 5 mg D-ribose twice a day, 20 mg sublingual NADH once a day...hmmm, was there anything else? I was on travel and not keeping records, but those are the two things I would forget to do and be worse. I was probably using carnitine and CoQ10 at the time, too.

    I also tried doubling my thyroid (50 mcg to 100 mcg) for two days, in desperation. Since 100 mcg is not an uncommon dose, I decided to do the experiment. It did help with the cold, but it exacerbated my low cortisol and low blood sugar.

    My suggestion: see a doctor to check your thyroid. It's miserable to be cold all the time, and that's the likely culprit. You may also want to check testosterone and DHEA, as those also have a thermal effect (0.5 degree for me, but getting to the high 97s is bliss).
     
  5. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    Mine is due to dysautonomia, when my OI is bad (Oi or CFS crash) my feet and hands get colder, somtimes even my whole body. Is a known symptom issues with temperature control.
     
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  6. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    My feet, hands and sometimes my nose are always freezing. For me I am pretty sure it is related to my thyroid/ Hashimotos Disease. I read about Raynauds but don't think I have it although similar. I can be wearing shorts & t-shirt but still need those warm footies on my feet and it is worse if we have the air conditioning on.
     
  7. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    You should be taking B-complex with B12. Niacin is often deficient in us and may resolve your circulation issue.
    Your B12 can induce B2 or B6 deficiencies.

    If you lose too much water, circulation to hands/feet will suffer. Potassium or B2 deficiencies both create pains.
    Increasing Folate before correcting these could worsen matters.
     
  8. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Thank you! I did have a Reynaud's diagnosis from the 1980s. Fingernails also turn blue then, or hands blue and fingernails white. Here's how to deal with that:
    Putting them in warm water (feels like hitting them with a hammer) brings the circulation back. Also, standing in a tub of water works for the feet. Be careful not to use water that's too hot - it can be hard to tell - because you really can't feel it - and you can burn yourself. Use a different part of your body (elbow, cheek) to test water temperature. To keep your whole body temp stable longer, get in a deep bath (if you have or can borrow one); that's not practical when you're at work, but do what you can when you can.
     
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  9. IreneF

    IreneF Senior Member

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    Cold hands and feet can be due to lots of things. I used to run cold until I started swimming. Then I ran hot. I ran colder after I lost weight. Ditto when my BP was low.

    Exercise was the best thing, but most of us can't do that, so wearing thick woolen socks and mitts is probably next best.

    PS: We got a floating thermometer when my kids were little. Looked like a rubber ducky.
     
  10. DeGenesis

    DeGenesis Senior Member

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    Cold feet - try massage calf muscles
    Cold hands - this one is complicated and depends if they are blotched and puffy as well. Could be due to trigger points in the anterior neck all of the way down the forearm. Please take a look a trigger points!
     
  11. kraken

    kraken

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    Thanks for all the recommendations/tips! such a great forum. If things persist and maybe get worse, I might look talk to a doctor about it. I've done thyroid test in the past and everything came out normal, there was something that was "slightly elevated" they said. Did never get the papers though so can look for what it is. I will definitely push through side-effects as long as it doesnt go overboard.

    @Leopardtail, would you say I should take the entire b-complex capsule I linked? I just thought 80 mg Niacin might be too much as it "eats" methylgroups. I have some regular Niacin at home too, cant take much at all before I flush though. 30-40 mg on an empty stomach makes it for me which leads me to believe I have some histamine issues.

    Anybody have a clue if Histamine intolerance could cause these symptoms? I had pretty severe breathing problems last time I did methylation as well, triggered at different times but mostly when I ate something. Experiencing some of that right now too. Theorizing about mast cell issues. I know driving up the methylation cycle could increase histamine but on the other hand it should detoxify and decrease it as well..
     
  12. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    @DeGenesis Just curious, is there a relationship between cold feet and calf pain? I pretty much always have both but never thought they were related to each other?!!
     
  13. DeGenesis

    DeGenesis Senior Member

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    Yes tight calf muscles can constrict blood flow to and from your feet. Or your calf muscles could be working especially hard to keep blood from pooling in your extremities (the skeletal muscle pump), if that is an issue for you, thus creating a vicious cycle.

    EDIT: This is my personal experience.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2014
    Gingergrrl likes this.
  14. 2manyhobbies

    2manyhobbies

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    I would have a serum ferritin run to make sure your problem isn't low iron and at the same time a serum Zinc to make sure you are getting enough to keep up the conversion homocysteine to methionine.

    The folks at the Pfieffer clinic were adamant about getting enough Zinc absorbed to make methylation work. This would be especially significant for you after having gut issues which hinder absorption.

    30 mgs. every other day seems pretty light given an absorption of say 20--40% for a healthy gut. I would think closer to 50mg daily of a good chelate would be more in line IF your ferritin levels are good.

    Low Zinc will produce cold extremities especially after exercise.
     
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  15. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Kraken,

    Your specific question

    I can't tell from the link if your B-complex is sustained release. Most people though need a full B-complex we are often deficient in multiple B-Vitamins. Thorne is a reputable company and I would expect their formulation to be balanced unless you have some specific issue. The matter of Niacin & Methylation is a balancing act. Lack of Niacin inhibits natural methylation whereas high dose Niacin tablets consume methyl groups.

    The flushing when it is occurring is caused by restoration of blood flow, so may feel very slightly uncomfortable but should not be harmful with modest Niacin doses, it's more a matter of what you are able to tolerate. High doses of Niacin however can cause issues, and should only be used with good evidence that they are needed. Be ware that you cannot generate energy without Niacin it's an inherent part of the process. Also if you are not over-methylating and are simply taking Niacin for its own sake, then you may want to consider any of: Niacinamide; a Sustained release tablet; NAD+ or NADH. Flushing is far less likely with these other forms and there is better research evidence for NADH or NAD (I can't remember which).

    Perhaps if the full tablet gives side effects, it might be better to take the two halves at different times of day? Personally I saw benefit from a similar product to yours, but I realise we are all different.

    I you had marked side effects doing Methylation with separate supplements there are two possibilities: 1. you are already over methylating; 2. you went too fast, when Konenynenberg did this, he used 1/4 tablets then half tablet then full tablet and worked up with the Methylfoalte and B12.

    The amount of B9 you are taking is far less than the B12, in general one would expect to take more B12 than B9 (e.g. 200mcg B9 = 800mcg B12). High doses of B12 can also induce B6 or B2 deficiencies. You need to start slower, and more balanced and then adjust as your symptoms indicate.


    Hope that helps,

    More information needed

    If the paleness and coldness you describe all away from the Torso (legs & feet, arms & hands, face) or is it universal?

    Are you suffering more urination & thirst than before attempting Methylation.

    The paleness you are suffering could be a variety of things, correct response to low blood volume, thyroid issues (e.g. raised TSH), nutritional deficiencies.

    Leo
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2014
  16. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    @DeGenesis Wow, I literally never thought about this connection! I have very tight calf muscles that always hurt (even when my feet are not cold) and I also have low blood volume. Do you know if there is any treatment for this?

    Also, do you know if someone with these two issues (calf pain and freezing cold feet) would also be more likely to get bruises on their calves/legs? I had this bruising off & on for a long time although for the last 2-3 weeks the bruises are completely gone. I have normal blood clotting time on tests and do not have EDS. Just curious if you have heard of this before?

    Thanks again!
     
  17. DeGenesis

    DeGenesis Senior Member

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    Take a look at antiphospholipid syndrome AKA Hughes syndrome. It can involve both easy bruising (do you have a slightly low platelet count, BTW?), and 'sticky' blood, leading to symptoms of POTS and low blood volume. I will post again tomorrow when I can get my head straight.

    Oh, do you have varicose veins?

    Take care
     
  18. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    @DeGenesis, I actually have a normal platelet count (right in the middle of the range) and do not have varicose veins. My veins for whatever reason, are very tiny and hard to find for blood tests and IV's.

    I researched Hughes Syndrome in the past (I now forget why, but someone else mentioned it to me and I think it was a good friend of mine who has Lupus) but the description did not seem to match.

    I never had bruising before I got severe mono in 2012, and at that time I had bruises all over my body. More recently, they were only on my calves and a few on my upper legs. I saw a hematologist right after mono in 2012 and she did a lot of tests and was not concerned and just thought my body was "Slow to heal from mono."

    I didn't develop POTS type stuff until about a year after mono but with beta blocker & Florinef it is actually well controlled right now. The bruises are totally gone but I was so curious when you made the connection between cold feet & calf pain that I had to ask. But my doctors did not suspect that I had Hughes Syndrome when I brought it up at that time.

    But if the bruises come back again, I may see a hematologist again now that it is 2.5 years later.
     
  19. DeGenesis

    DeGenesis Senior Member

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    I find it relatively easy to massage my calves with a tennis or lacrosse ball. I can tell the difference between good and bad pain fairly easily. There are a lot of good resources on trigger points (muscles knots) on the internet.
     
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  20. kraken

    kraken

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    @2manyhobbies, my Zinc serum last time I checked was 14,1 umol/L which isnt very low I guess? I'm not sure what optimal would be though since I cannot find anything about that on the internet. But the thing about absorption issues sounds interesting since I've had gut problems for a long time.


    @Leopardtail, you are probably right about the start slow and go slow scenario. Maybe I've gone too fast again. But the reason for this however, is the paradoxical folate defiency which I believe I find myself to be in at times (getting symptoms for it). Thats why I raised the dose of folate and along with that, B12 too. Some days I've raised with about 2 mg of folate and maybe thats a bit too radical for my body to handle. About the B-complex, I've read from Freddd about certain b-vitamins (like B1 and B2) creating a greater need for folate, thats why I only took half of the capsule as well as the niacin content.

    The pale skin is beginning on the top of my fingernails (which turn a bit blue) and then goes down only half a finger. Checked my feets at one time and they were a bit blue and pale, nothing extreme but noticable. Maybe a little bit pale in my face as well. Btw just took ~120 mg of Niacin which got me flushed, now I'm sitting here with slightly cold extremites again, hmpf. Havn't taken my supplements for the day yet though.

    I do suffer from increased urination & thirst but has been like this for a long time. Feels like I dont get enough water, or I have to drink to not get dehydrated. Actually I think this has settled down a bit since starting the methylation. But I urinate like 10+ times a day.
     

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