1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
9th Invest in ME International ME Conference, 2014 - Part 2: Pathogens and the Gut
Mark Berry continues his series of articles on the 9th Invest in ME International ME Conference in London, with the emphasis shifting from autoimmunity to pathogens and the gut ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Conspiracy theory stuff, but interesting.

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by heapsreal, Oct 23, 2013.

  1. overtrain

    overtrain Medical Mafia needs to die via this virus.

    Except one theory holds they don't concern themselves beyond their own lifespan, or at most 1 generation ahead.

    It's the media, too, owned by them that perpetuates lies re world resources. My Master's thesis was on the world water crisis. Ppl think there aren't enough resources; food, water. Oh, there are. There very much are. It is the DISTRIBUTION that's lacking. It's down to human greed, plain & simple. Greed, hatred, delusion.

    I know nothing about fossil fuels, etc. i do, however, know alternatives are ignored by the powerful in favor of keeping car manufacturing going. Were efficient pub trans a priority, we'd have it.
  2. overtrain

    overtrain Medical Mafia needs to die via this virus.

    A good place for quotes: psychquotes.com

    I found the best quote ever about psychiatrists but it's lurking unseen in the blackhole of the hotel room. I'll try to locate & post back. :)
  3. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,181
    Likes:
    11,241
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Distribution is only one issue. Its a finite resource. Growth is (they want to think) infinite. Infinite growth will eventually exceed finite limits, its the timing that is in doubt. Infinite growth is a fantasy.

    Most problems can be addressed though. It just takes vision and the will to do it. Mostly we lack both.
    Snowdrop likes this.
  4. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,181
    Likes:
    11,241
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    I would like to read that quote, but also note that quotes taken out of context can be dangerous. I like to look at the source materials. Rather than quote a paragraph, I try to read the whole book. Its one reason things are progressing slowly for my own book, but when something is this important you don't want to get it wrong.

    Has anyone guessed what discipline I was writing about before, the one that is full of babble but not psych? I need some sleep, I might write about it when I wake up. Anyone who has read a lot of what I write has probably already guessed though.
  5. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

    Messages:
    2,395
    Likes:
    2,819
    Couchland, USA
    timeline of documented hideous governmental human experimentation, in case anyone thought it implausible that these things go on:

    http://www.naturalnews.com/022383_research_experiments.html

    a few excerpts:
    overtrain likes this.
  6. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member

    Messages:
    434
    Likes:
    623
    Toronto
    This is an infamous Canadian example from the fifties/sixties of 'code named' experiments on people gone wrong.

    It never matters how enlightened we collectively feel in any era. There are always people in a position of authority willing to harm others for the sake of personal scientific enquiry. An excerpt:

    The experiments were part of the infamous “MK ULTRA” program conducted under the aegis of the U.S. intelligence agencies in the 1950s and 1960s, exposed in media and in hearings before the U.S. Congress in the 1970s. Cameron brutalized and maimed patients with drugs, shocks and lobotomies as he sought a means to “depattern” and program the human mind. Canadian survivors still able to seek reparation eventually obtained a $750,000 shared settlement from the U.S. government in 1988.

    http://www.freedommag.org/english/vol34i1/page07.htm
    overtrain likes this.
  7. Katherine

    Katherine

    Messages:
    72
    Likes:
    40
    UK
    I have this book (The Extremely Unfortunate Skull Valley Incident), but I had to discontinue reading it to focus on other research which was more of a priority. However, it is an interesting book and I plan to pick it up again soon.

    Some excerpts:

    1984
    In the summer of 1984, as we have earlier noted, a construction crew arrived at the high school (Tahoe-Truckee) and installed a new air conditioning/heating system. The new system had an unusual feature: each room was individually serviced by individual intake and exhaust ducts. This meant that the air in a room could be drawn to the air conditioner/furnace, cooled or heated, and then returned to the same room from which it had been drawn. In addition, the windows were all sealed shut and the staff was forbidden from opening them to get any fresh air. An arrangement such as this made it possible to feed a pathogen by primary aerosol directly to the occupants of a specific room, while the occupants of all the other rooms would be spared primary aerosol but would be subject to secondary aerosol.

    Someone to watch over me
    The Tahoe-Truckee area had access to a number of doctors, but two in particular are important to our study: Dr. Dan Peterson and Dr. Paul Cheney who in 1984 were partners in a clinic in Incline Village, Nevada, a few miles east of the California/Nevada border on the north shore of Lake Tahoe. Both doctors had received financial assistance from the US government in their years of medical education, and both apparently owed a period of time equivalent to their years of training to the government. That is to say, if the government had need of their services in some particular area for whatever reasonable purpose, both Peterson and Cheney were bound to accept the assignment.

    Peterson, in what according to Hillary Johnson had been a 'gamble' had settled in Incline Village in 1981. In 1983 he invited Cheney to join him. Thus, by 1984, just as Tahoe-Truckee High School was being re-equipt with an unusual heating system, two new doctors, both indebted to the US government, were on site in case some business should come their way, such as an outbreak of a mystery disease.

    1985
    When Tahoe-Truckee High School had re-opened in the Fall of 1984, eight teachers had found themselves assigned to a separate staff room. In this room, with its windows bolted shut and its air constantly recycled from the newly installed air conditioning/heating system, the teachers became aware of a distressing quality to the air. One of the teachers assigned to this staffroom decided that he would not use his workplace and parked a camper trailer a short distance from the school. Here he ate his lunches, marked his papers, prepared his lessons and took his coffee breaks.

    At the end of the school year, seven of the teachers assigned to the small staffroom were ill with a 'mystery' disease which came to be known as CFIDS. Only one of the eight escaped: the teacher who had chosen to keep clear of the room.

    Was Flood or MacArthur Right?
    MacArthur had stated his belief that only targets exposed to primary aerosol would become ill. Congressman Flood had expressed doubt. Congressman Flood was right. Even students who never entered the small staffroom became ill over the course of the school year. The pathogen was contagious by secondary aerosol....far more contagious than anyone had dreamed.

    Consequences
    ......there was also a growing number of family members of the school population who were becoming ill, and even members of the community who had no obvious link with anyone from the school. The victims sought medical help, and many found their way to the Peterson/Cheney clinic. It is reported that persons attending the offices of other doctors in the area did not find the same level of interest that the patients of Peterson/Cheney were receiving. Peterson and Cheney sought outside help.....turning to Drs. Werner and Gertrude Henle, a German husband-wife team who had immigrated to the US in the 1930s. This team was among the top scientists of the period who were studying the Epstein-Barr virus which was implicated in Burkitt's lymphoma and mononucleosis. And, it is interesting to note, both Werner and Gertrude Henle had been members of the Kissinger-Nixon 'Great War of Cancer' under which so much biowar research had gone on. All of those concerned studied the symptoms, which resembled chronic brucellosis, but none seemed to link that ancient disease with the new epidemic. Instead, most of the doctors continued their focus upon chronic mononucleosis....and that is passing strange.

    .....when another epidemic of a mystery disease bearing startling similarity to that of Tahoe-Truckee broke out in 1985 in Lyndonville New York, the possibility of brucellosis was considered by Dr.Karen Bell but "Brucellosis tests were uniformly negative". Despite the fact that standard tests were negative, Dr. David Bell (then husband of Karen) responded to the illness with treatment by doxycycline, a standard brucellosis remedy, and apparently experienced a good level of success. [This information was passed to us by a colleague of Dr. Bell, who does not want to be indentified]

    --------------------------------

    There is also this excerpt in the summary - 'Testing was a necssary part of the development of the CFIDS pathogen and we infer from our studies that Tahoe-Truckee High School was one test site and that Drs Peterson and Cheney were military/CIA monitors put on site to evaluate the consequences'.

    'It is of interest that a patient of Dr. Peterson ordered 3 copies of the original edition of The Extremely Unfortunate Skull Valley Incident in 1997. She stated on a note with her order that Dr. Peterson had suggested this book to her. How one should interpret this cannot be ventured. We have attempted to involve Dr. Peterson in our research but he has refused to reply to faxes and an Express Mail letter we sent him.'

    Also mentioned in the book is this - '....and we had learned privately but from a highly placed and very reliable scientist, that Koprowski and former director of the CDC Brian Mahy, had quite possibly sabotaged the research of Wistar researcher, Dr. Elaine Defreitas.'

    And this - 'We puzzled: how do poeple like Robert Gallo and Leonard Hayflick and Dharma Ablashi, who, in the early 1960s were all engaged in the early stages of AIDS and CFIDS research before such disease entities even existed, undergo a metamorphosis in the 1980's into experts in these very disease entities? We pose another hypothesis: these people were the experts in the 1980's precisely because they were the researchers developing the pathogens in the 1960's - 1970's.'

    --------------------------------

    These are just excerpts, you would have to read the book to evaluate the author's research.
  8. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,181
    Likes:
    11,241
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    The discipline that is full of babble and nonsense claims, yet which receives backing at the highest level of government ... is economics. Read the history, not the textbooks. Most basic premises in economics have been disproved, most theories in vogue are also disproved. There are so many things wrong I don't even know where to begin. So I ask the question: if a vitally important discipline that is central to the wealth of nations is so full of nonsense, how easy is it for other disciplines to be stuffed up?

    Some basic points:

    1. The Law of Supply and Demand is a heuristic at best. Its not a law. Its basic tenets are disproved.
    2. The "Trickle Down" theory has much less evidence than if you presume a "trickle up" theory. Optimal distribution of resources in society, a key claim in free market economics, does not occur. Stimulus to the poor boosts an economy more than stimulus to the rich. In a free market and bad times people are not paid what they are worth. They are paid as little as can be achieved. This is often a downward spiral on wages and conditions. Just look at Mexico and the impact international companies have had there.
    3. Neoclassical economics failed to predict the sub-prime crisis, or its world-wide aftermath, and systems are still not in place to prevent it again.
    4. Bad behaviour and failure on Wall Street was rewarded with bailouts in key companies. What message does that send to the market? Risk it all, and if you fail most will get a golden parachute.
    5. The single biggest problem is this. Economics is completely grounded in the 19th century vision of a rational consumer, updated for the early 20th century, and showing its age. There is considerable evidence, largely from a field now called Behavioural Economics, that people do not behave rationally. They do not optimize choices, at best they only satisfice them, and they often do that badly. Yes, satisfice is a word. It means to accept an easy but OK solution, and comes from Artificial Intelligence research.
    6. Austerity in recession is a recipe for disaster. Its a last resort. Classical Keynesian economists keep warning about this, but the message is not heard. Europe is a special case as there are strict rules on what member states can do. That might make Europe a basket case (as a single economic entity), the jury is still out.

    There are many parallels between Economics and Psychogenic Medicine. They even feed off each other. I am still researching this though. Ask me about it in a couple of years .. its a deep and complex topic.

    When inappropriate notions of proper economic strategy are in place, reinforced by politicians, big corporations, bureaucrats, economists and the BPS movement, anything can happen. Its a distortion of the system. It does not necessarily imply any specific wrongdoing under current rules, but it sets up conditions under which inappropriate influence flourishes, and any conspiratorial events that might arise involving these issues will be in a protected position.
    Snowdrop and leela like this.
  9. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,767
    Likes:
    1,440
    Florida
    Speaking of economics, if you follow the money
    trail, the medical profession has turned this
    illness into a cash cow. From psych research to
    cure all supplements. It's a free for all.
    overtrain likes this.
  10. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,181
    Likes:
    11,241
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    The classic example was gastric ulcers. The industry for antacids etc. was huge. When a cure came along, doctors were under huge pressure to ignore it, mostly from big pharma. In the end they no longer could though. A cure is different to an hypothesis. Who thinks any patient will sit quietly by and allow it to be buried? At the moment we don't have a cure, but the leading contender (and still not proven) is Rituximab.
    xchocoholic likes this.
  11. Katherine

    Katherine

    Messages:
    72
    Likes:
    40
    UK
    Everyone should read Project Day Lily. Especially considering Dr. Lo's recent involvement in CFS research. His AIDS/M.fermentans incongitus papers are also curious. Shyh Ching Lo was part of Project Day Lily and also was involved in covering up GWI because of the M. fermantans incognitus pathogen - the patent was applied for in 1987 and the inventor of the record was Lo. Once you know his history and what he took part in, you might wonder what his interest is in CFS research, whether he should be trusted to work in this area, and why others such as Mikovits don't question this also (she probably is not aware). http://lawrencebroxmeyer.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/aids-pic-shyh-ching-lo-md-about-to-give-a-presentation.png.

    You can get a brief outline of the story here and Nicolson's comments http://www.immed.org/infectious disease reports/InfectDiseaseReport06.11.09update/PHA_Nicolson_0709_v4.07.pdf

    -------------------------------------

    Does anyone remember the El Al plane crash in 1992? 'Hundreds of local residents reported health problems thought to be related to the crash, such as depression, listlessness and respiratory problems.
    An official report published in 1999 censured the government for failing to investigate the crash properly and initiate health checks.' http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/4/newsid_4617000/4617395.stm

    Then read this.........http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Avian2005/conversations/topics/3456?var=0

    -------------- Original message --------------
    From: "Kathleen Roberts" <weerkhr@...>
    Garth Nicolson: www.immed.org
    www.projectdaylily.com

    Likely yes. There were biological ampules found at the crash site marked
    biohazard. Also, we found many cases of Mycoplasma fermentans in first
    responders who became sick and residents of the crash site (about 2/3 of the
    sick cases tested positive). Also, workers in the hanger where the plane parts
    were being re-assembled came down sick, also with M. fermentans
    infections.

    Garth

    >
    > From: "Kathleen Roberts" <weerkhr@...>
    > Date: 2006/04/12 Wed AM 12:22:14 EDT
    > To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;>
    > Subject: El Al Crash
    >
    > Garth,
    > I recall you worked with some of the Dutch people affected. Were
    there biological weapons along with the chemicals involved?
    ------------------------------

    It's a small world :)
  12. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    148
    The question is, what can we do about all of this? Probably nothing.
  13. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

    Messages:
    2,395
    Likes:
    2,819
    Couchland, USA
    It has always struck me how little discussed is the Lo patent on mycoplasma while he was working for the DoD.
    Katherine likes this.
  14. Katherine

    Katherine

    Messages:
    72
    Likes:
    40
    UK
    Nicolson lost 5 academic colleagues who 'died under mysterious circumstances while investigating aspects of the alleged illegal testing of Biological Weapons in Texas hospitals, nursing homes and prisons.' This is all detailed in the book. You can read about what happened to Garth's boss here http://www.nytimes.com/1982/12/18/us/doctor-is-fatally-shot-at-hospital-in-houston.html

    There were also attempts on both the Nicolsons' lives. Nancy was deliberated infected with Mfi at one point, Nicolson was poisoned in Moscow and Germany.....this is a tiny part of the story. The details on Lo are very interesting. If their daughter had not been infected with the Mfi pathogen while she was serving in the gulf war, they would never have discovered any of this, and the links between the 'Huntsville mystery illness' (the prison experiments) and GWI would never have been made. Probably the CFS/mycoplasma research wouldn't have been conducted either, and Lo and his pathogen creation would not have become so conspicuous.
  15. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,102
    Likes:
    1,636
    Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
    Nukes don't contain fluoride...and even if they did the over all effects of the weapon vastly outdoes any basic chemical issues by huge margin. Part of the insane lie, indeed, myopia of the nuclear strategy is the sick morons couldn't see the glaring problems with their game plans:

    1) Russia relied on huge thermo nukes ot exterminate enemy populace, megaton class weapons guarantee enormous firestorms (beyond certain point around 300 kilotons irc, heat pulse out paces distance of blast effects as squared rather than cubed dilution of effect with range), whole cities burn, guarantees global freeze etc.

    2) NATO/America prided themselves on smarter more accurate weapons, designed ot take out enemy bases etc. well DUH, that means ground bursts, which means insane amounts of radiation especially if you hit stockpiles of metals (tanks, planes, bases) or nuclear materials (warheads and electric generating reactors for power and propulsion)
    and every time I read the ludicrous garbage stating the smaller NATO warheads wouldn't create firestorms I wanted to puke, sorry morons out there but modern buildings will burst or topple when hit by nuke blasts etc especially since they will be MIRVed with overlapping effects from multiple warheads in clusters, and did no one consider what happens in cities with huge numbers of vehicles, loaded with fuel, well they become flying burning battering rams AND there won't be any bloody emergency response or ability to put out fires ensuring conflagrations become firestorms

    did NONE of those dumb ***** actually consider their tests were done out in deserts, atolls over water etc that REFLECTED most of the heat and had only a handful of staged buildings completely unlike a REAL complex city which would funnel blast winds, have cars thrown through buildings at 200+mph etc?
    PLEASE read folsk epscially any who support nuclear "deterrence", it's absolute suicidal rbbish we cannot survive with
    http://www.nukefix.org/weapon.html

    Eight low tech "Hiroshima" 20kiloton bombs will be as effective, more so actually than a 1 megaton high-tech weapon
    US/UK uses Tridents, each submarine launched missile has 4 or 5 warheads of 100kilotons (US versions can carry 12 but treaties limit that), wipe out any city you want, few will survive as the effects of overlapping bursts means a fence, a corral of firestorms, few will ever survive unlike at Nagasaki

    [​IMG]

    Uranium hexafluoride (main form of depleted uranium) though IS a huge , terrible threat to health. By product of processing to make plutonium, Fukushima, Chernobyl, Sellafield and others, all big lie, big arrogant screw ups, their use as civilian reactors were excuses, real purpose was for plutonium production for bombs hence grotesque mismanagement and governmental interference etc
    I know Japan has no nuclear forces...reciprocal work with US for US "shield" etc.
    USA is working on processing its UHF6 into much "safer" metal, but it' still highly toxic and low level alpha emitter.
    UHF6 is horrendous stuff, violently reactive extremely corrosive, has to be moved into new containers every decade or so, low power explosion on hitting air, releases deadly HF gas, sprays uranium (which is pyrophoric) all over

    Alex
    our leaders will easily "buy into" any damn bullshit that sounds good, and many assholes know this, "seeling" them whatever will give them power, kudos and wealth, that is the truth. :(
    time to end politics it's a death cycle.
    democracy by lottery, like jury duty one term only, end incumbency, no re-elections only practical sane answer to much of our woes. NO ONE SHOULD GET POWER WHO DESIRES IT! :/

    see Russel brand interview folk are going on about, finally the penny is dropping
    leela likes this.
  16. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

    Messages:
    2,395
    Likes:
    2,819
    Couchland, USA
    that russell brand interview is awesome! i am less annoyed and more impressed by him every time. he so nailed it!
    also, see the latest crap about fukushima. reactor 4 is a nightmare. coastal north america is already seeing high radiation and damage to marine life. the incompetence and cover ups are appalling and scary. and all this--the nuclear energy industry i mean--in place to supply the pipeline for armaments.
    just disgusting and anti-life.
  17. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,181
    Likes:
    11,241
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Many of the issues we are facing now go right to the heart of democracy, and constitional law. I find myself having to read US constitutional law just to get a better grip on ME politics!

    The only thing that can be said about current democracy, under current rules, is that its better than the alternatives.

    Our respective democracies are becoming less democratic year by year. Its one reason why so many have no faith in government in so many countries. The constitutions of these countries were written in an age when the complexity of what is going on was comparatively simple, and many modern problems were not even conceived of. Global constitutional reform will probably be necessary to fix this. Constitutions create boundaries, though those boundaries can be broken or redefined, but within those boundaries so very much can go wrong.

    The growing failures in media companies and investigative journalism compound the problem. The Fourth Estate is dying. Long live the Fifth Estate!

    I think most of the evil in the modern world arises when people do the right thing for themselves, their organizations or their government, without breaking any rules. Its the sum total of their actions or inaction that lead to the problems, and nobody claims responsibility. Governments pushing the line that governments should regulate as little as possible are a big part of the problem. Governments shouldn't over-regulate, nobody disputes that, but the current regulation systems are disastrously inadequate.

    If a problem arises because of interaction with say several companies and government, and none of them have responsibility for the consequences under law, then is it any surprise bad things happen and nobody tries to fix them? Indeed in a culture of secrecy the first impulse is often to cover it up, even if that is immoral, unethical or illegal. Denying and covering up saves people's butts, but it allows the problems to continue. Those that do this are not only guilty of crimes or unethical practice in covering up, they are guilty of contributing to future crimes and unethical practices.

    Conspiracies exist. Yet the entire global system is responsible, or should be held responsible, for fostering conditions in which this happens. Its not just the conspirators.
    Snowdrop and SilverbladeTE like this.
  18. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,181
    Likes:
    11,241
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
  19. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    148
    I urge everyone to go to healthyprotocols.com2_mycoplasma there is lots of interesting information and quotes by those in the know. One that stood out to me was by Donald w Scott MA who is quoted as saying he has all the official documents to prove mycoplasma is THE disease agent in cfs.

    Again I ask what can we do about it?

    Anyone know where to find Dr Garth Nicolsons treatment for mycoplasma? Preferably a recent version.
  20. Katherine

    Katherine

    Messages:
    72
    Likes:
    40
    UK
    That's true about Donald Scott, some of the papers are discussed in the Skull Valley Incident book and he does name names. The scientists involved in developing such pathogens often published papers on what they were doing while cleverly concealing the true intent of their research. This is what Lo did.

    To quote Nicolson (Project DayLily book), 'After all, it could prove to be interesting, and he might be able to even publish some of the work if he was clever not to reveal the real agenda behind the 'Day Lily'. He will just have to keep the important points secret from his scientific colleagues. This was done all the time by military scientists, so it should not be a problem. He was rarely allowed to publish in China, and the thought of seeing his name in print thrilled him. Thoughts of how to hide the real agenda and truth about the 'Day Lily' mycoplasma while publishing on the more academic points of the microorganism enthralled him. He would control the academic chess game, because he will be the only one that knows all of the facts behind the little mycoplasma. Dr. Lo hesistated and then smiled at the two men. He was weak and would do exactly what they wanted, even though he considered them of inferior intelligence and incapable of important decisions that could affect the future of mankind. One does not have to be evil to do evil, because good men only have to say nothing and do nothing.'

    Not all people with CFS test positive for mycoplasma. I think most papers stated that around 50% of their patients tested positive. I tested negative. Nicolson recommended RedLabs to me. The sample should be tested within 24hrs and preferably refrigerated not frozen.

    Maybe Scott is right about his theory, but maybe that only applies to the sites where they 'field tested' the
    pathogen(s).....the documented outbreaks possibly. CFS might also be caused by pathogens that have not been weaponised and we really dont know whether current cases of CFS are related to the past outbreaks.

    It does appear though that there was an effort to distract scientists/doctors away from mycoplasma testing. For instance, Lo published a paper in 1993 with Komaroff, Bell and Cheney stating that antibodies against mycoplasmas could not be detected in CFS patients, therefore they do not have such infections. Lo knows that antibody based assays are not a suitable method of detecting mycoplasmas and he stated this in his own patent. He is dishonest.

    This article states that Dr. Nicolson ‘notes that once a laboratory gets a reliable test in place (for mycoplasmas) the laboratory is often shut down. There are only a few labs left that test for mycoplasma as a result.......Dr. Nicolson finds that laboratories that test for mycoplasma are highly scrutinised by federal agencies and that may affect the way the labs test and report this type of infection.’ http://www.immed.org/infectious disease reports/InfectDiseaseReport06.11.09update/PHA_Nicolson_0709_v4.07.pdf
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
    overtrain likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page