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Connection aluminium, folate, magnesium, iodine, b12

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by geraldxx, Jun 14, 2017.

  1. geraldxx

    geraldxx

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    Hello there,

    i recently read some stuff about the toxicity of aluminium. Generally, i feel better with the typical methylation supplements like folate, magnesium, iodine, b12. I had many symptom free weeks, most were in holidays. Then i made the connection: At work we get our food delivered in aluminium boxes. This food sit maybe 2-3 hours, maybe more, in this alu boxes until we get them. I checked them, there is no coating between food and aluminium, this means our food has direct contact with aluminium for hours.

    Now i checked my coffee maker, i opened it and the heating part is all made of aluminium and i drink a lot of coffee from it. In my symptom free weeks, i didnt drink any coffee from this coffee maker. My symptoms got even worse when i cleaned the coffee maker with vinegar, vinegar (acid in general) leeches some more material from aluminium and the plastics in the coffee maker.

    So now i eliminate all stuff which could have aluminium in it. Maybe im on the right track, though i dont know yet.
     
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  2. HowToEscape?

    HowToEscape? Senior Member

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    Well, aluminum is not intended for cooking acidic foods. So yeah, acid on bare aluminum plus heat and then immediately eating out of it would not be a wise move. The acid etching process also creates a microscopically rough surface, so after heating a moderately strong acid such as vinegar in an aluminum vessel, it's not good for eating from. Heat sharply increases the activity of the acid.
    All that said, aluminum is a pretty strange material for a heating element, if what you mean is an electric heating element. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you might want to double check that.

    But if aluminum were really that dangerous in minute amounts, everyone in Puerto Rico + the Dominican republic would be sick, because practically everyone, or so it seems, has one of those aluminum moka pots to make their morning coffee. Those boil water in bare aluminum, no surface inert layer of anything.

    Aluminum isn't a food group and I wouldn't grind up flakes of it and then shake them on to my oatmeal. But aluminum is also the most common metal in the earths crust. It's natural, it's everywhere and you can't avoid all traces of it.
     
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  3. Wishful

    Wishful

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    Aluminum still seems to be a favourite of health scarers. The study decades ago linking aluminum to alzheimer's was later proven to be bad science. The scare is remembered; that it was disproven has been forgotten. Also the scare was highly publicized; the counter wasn't.

    I don't worry about aluminum.
     
  4. MeganM

    MeganM

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    Couldn't agree more! Aluminum is so toxic. I was my sickest when I was using antiperspirant deodorant with aluminum in the early 90s..by then it was hard to find any that didn't have aluminum. I was concerned, but when my clothes kept coming out of the washer with shinier and shinier patches of aluminum in the arm pits, I was horrified...even hand scrubbing the sleeves of shirts couldn't get it out! Went back to using deoderent and gave up on being completely dry. Started feeling better..I'm sure from going on a CFS diet and other things also. Thank goodness I discovered Himalayan salt sticks and have been using them ever since. Threw away all aluminum pans, even if covered with more scary nonstick coatings. Got rid of the rice cooker and anything aluminum. I won't use aluminum foil..and all those people cooking veggies wrapped in it on the grill! No more alumnim cooking or food serving pans, no more soda or carbonated water in aluminum cans..imagine with carbonation and acid what gets leached from those cans! I can't imagine why it is legal to use aluminum for anything that would touch food. Where is the legislation on this issue?
     
  5. geraldxx

    geraldxx

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    The heating element: Yes, it's made from aluminium. I opened the machine and read also that most coffee machines nowadays are made of aluminium. I mean the part of the element where the water runs through to to get heated. The heating pad is also of aluminium.

    Maybe it's not the aluminium but how can i know it? There are humans who cant detox aluminium well and also humans who can do well. When i read what helps to detox aluminium: Folate, Magnesium, iodine, vit D it opened my eyes somewhow. Because i need this supps to survive. Without them i slowly get sicker and sicker. Sure, there is aluminium in our earth, i've read that argument a lot but nowadays we live in a aluminium world, it's everywhere from dust to cookware.

    I know the pros and cons. I have nothing to loose and i will try to detox aluminium, maybe i win, maybe i fail. If aluminium isn't the problem i move on.
     
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  6. Wishful

    Wishful

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    Aluminum is obviously a controversial issue for some people. I can't see how aluminum in the blood could come out in clothing as metallic aluminum; it's far too reactive for that. If it came out in sweat, it would come out as aluminum salts, which wouldn't look metallic, and which should wash out easily.

    As far as I know, aluminum cans are coated internally with a very thin coating of plastic, since aluminum is easily dissolved by acids.

    As for why it's legal for food contact, the legislators looked at the scientific evidence and found no health hazards for normal people. Some people do have medical conditions which prevent the normal removal of excess aluminum, but those are exceptions to the rule.

    My guess is that more people have been harmed by the stress of fear of aluminum than from aluminum itself...
     
  7. MeganM

    MeganM

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    I did not mean the aluminum was coming out from my skin onto my clothes. It is aluminum chlorhydrate that they put in antipersperents. I put in on under my arms and it rubbed off onto my the armpit area of my blouses. Since this is a CFS group and many of us are NOT "normal" and many like me have multiple chemical sensitivities, I think it is an important concern for people on here to be sharing. Lots of chemicals naturally occur in nature, but that doesn't mean that a high concentration is good for us. I'm not sure why anything should be considered contaversial when it comes to CFS. If I've learned anything through many years of CFS is the importance of appreciating how each one of us can be sensitive or find things toxic that someone else may not. Since there seem to be different causes of triggers for all of us, I am glad to know all he potential issues by listening to what others have isolated. No one can say to any of us what is good or bad because each body is unique. All of us on here are exceptions to the rule in one way or another, and I personally dont trust NIH to make recommendations that aren't influenced by corporate pressure. To say that my or anyone else's symptoms are caused by the FEAR of aluminum or other environmental factors sounds discounting to many of us on this site, and exactly what we have to hear from our friends, family, and the medical system. And THAT is what is stressful!
     
  8. caledonia

    caledonia

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    All metals such as aluminum, mercury, lead, arsenic, cadmium, etc. are bad.

    Aluminum inhibits the methylation cycle in the area of BH4. People with the mutation MTHFR A1298C are more likely to have issues with aluminum and low BH4. This can cause mental health issues.

    Mercury and lead inhibit the methylation cycle at methionine synthase (MTR also called MSR). The methylation cycle controls over 40 major reactions in the body.

    Mercury and arsenic inhibit the citric acid cycle where energy is produced.

    There is some evidence that aluminum in the presence of mercury is many times more toxic than either one alone.

    There are many other pathways and nutrients which are inhibited by metals, especially mercury.

    A combination of mercury + arsenic causes multiple chemical sensitivities.

    Note that metals bioaccumulate, and don't come back out that easily, especially from the brain. People can poo-poo tiny exposures as not having any effect, but it all adds up over a lifetime, starting in utero. There are many exposures that people are not aware of.

    Fortunately, metals can be chelated out, but it's a long process. There is much misinformation about how to chelate correctly.

    The only protocol that makes sense to me, and that I have been able to tolerate, and that I've gotten some benefit from is the Cutler frequent dose chelation protocol.
     
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  9. cfs6691

    cfs6691

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    I googled allergy aluminum and there are sites regarding this topic as well as hypersensitivity to metals.Maybe you can check if your symptoms are consistent with allergy or hypersensitivity.
     
  10. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    Just to pick up on the point about aluminium. Most cans in contact with acidic foods have a lacquer so the food isn't in contact. This is pretty much standard practice for all metal food containers.

    I think the blanket term that all metals are bad is just nonsense. Magnesium is a metal?

    Think this is just all scare and voodoo hyped up by peddlers of bad science.

    As with everything it's never that black and white, much as we would all like nature to be about empirical rules that humans decide...it just doesn't work that way.

    I guess soon every element on the periodic table will be toxic

    I vote for silica...it's evil stuff all over the place and used in those awful electronic chips...whoever heard of chips made of silica? Must be toxic. I'm wrapping myself in cotton wool now...oh no the pesticides ahhhhh!:jaw-drop:
     
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  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @geraldxx
    One of the highest normal exposures to aluminum you can get is from commonly available antacid tablets, some of which contain aluminum hydroxide.

    Around 24 mg of aluminum is eaten in food daily in the US (ref: 1), whereas one 600 mg aluminum hydroxide antacid tablet contains 208 mg of aluminum (ref: 1).

    Around 0.2% of orally ingested aluminum is absorbed in the body(ref: 1), so that means your body gets a dose of around 0.05 mg (50 mcg) of aluminum daily just from your diet.


    So if you want to confirm your idea that dietary aluminum makes you feel worse, you could consider taking an aluminum hydroxide antacid tablet (away from your meals), which will give you around 10 times your normal daily dietary intake aluminum. If you don't feel any worse with that, then it's probably not the aluminum that's your trouble. I doubt that dietary aluminum is aluminum giving you trouble, unless you have an aluminum allergy, which is rare (but in which case you would probably want to be cautious with an antacid).



    In fact the body does not absorb much aluminum from aluminum-containing antiperspirants: around 4 mcg is absorbed from a single application of an antiperspirant on both underarms (ref: 1).

    Now from your daily diet, your body absorbs around 50 mcg aluminum each day, so you get over 10 times more aluminum from your diet than you do from a single antiperspirant application.



    In terms of aluminum detoxification, Professor Chris Exley recommends silica, which can be found in silica-rich mineral waters like Volvic. Silica is also found in horsetail herb.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  12. HowToEscape?

    HowToEscape? Senior Member

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    Well if all metals are bad, then you'd better eat with your hands but don't eat food that was grown on earth, cuz the ground is full of trace metals.
    Of course, no one denies that the heavy metals you cited are poisonous and we can handle only tiny exposures to them, perhaps about the amounts resulting from what's naturally present in ground and water. But aluminum is not a heavy metal, it's near phosphorous, sodium and silicon. Remove all your phosphorous and sodium and zip!, you're dead.

    it's quite possible that our system doesn't process things normally present in nature the same way everyone else does. Healthy systems are like happy families, well sickness has 1000 different ways to be broken.

    The methylation supplements seem to help many of us; if I don't take mine I can't even get 10 minutes out of bed. That doesn't give me any evidence for or against aluminum as having any connection to being sick. I have no more or less exposure to it than I did when I was in much better shape.
    Real Chelation involves some severe drugs and I would never trust a fake doc (N.D, chiro, internet etc) to prescribe those. That stuff can simply have the effect of moving heavy metals into your bones; there's a reason it's not sold in the do it yourself aisle. They're used for acute poisoning cases, where you can't afford time to let the body excrete the stuff on its own.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  13. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    Aluminum is a big issue for some people.

    A relative discarded all her aluminium cookware after blood tests showed very high aluminium levels. After a while of cooking with new, stainless steel pots, the blood levels returned to a more normal range and her health improved somewhat (it wasn't the only change that year). So absorption from cookware can be an issue for some.

    Even if aluminium is abundant and natural, it doesn't mean we should be ingesting it.

    If you are very sensitive, you might want to consider a water filter or drinking rainwater.
     
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  14. MeganM

    MeganM

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    Thanks for the reference, but I'm playing it safe and avoiding aluminum in deodorant for 3 reasons: 1), this study had only two subjects, I'm surprised it was even approved as a "preliminary study", 2) it states they only measured a 1 time application, not the cumulative effect of every day use over many years, and 3) having worked as a research assistant for the Nat Inst of Mental Health (NIMH) and having friends who worked in research and grants for NIH, I know the politics and back room deals that go on that bias the results of their research, from who gets approved grant money for research to biases that get built into research design, as well as the peer pressure and corporate pressure the NIH researchers face to support certain results.
     
  15. Wishful

    Wishful

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    See: it is a controversial subject. Despite scientific evidence that aluminum is safe for most people, there are others who still consider it super toxic for humans in general. It is toxic for a small percentage of the population, but that doesn't make it toxic for the majority. Walnuts may be fatal for a small percentage of the population, but that doesn't mean that walnuts should be labelled 'Extremely Hazardous Substance'. Arsenic can have such a label, since few people can tolerate significant amounts of it.

    If aluminum pots are allowed only because the aluminum industry bribed scientists and politicians, why aren't there also cadmium-plated pots, arsenic-based food preservatives, etc? Those toxic metal industries have money too. Besides, the producers of alternative pot materials would add their money in to counter the aluminum producers' money. My guess is that aluminum is allowed for food contact (or skin application or antacid) because no one has been able to provide solid scientific evidence of a health threat for the general population.

    If someone suspects that something--safe for the general population--is causing them problems, I'd say that it's wise for them to avoid it. If I thought aluminum was a problem for me, I'd test it (the aluminum-based anacids would be good), and repeat the test three times for statistical significance (unless the first test was really seriously nasty). That's my general procedure for testing things related to my disorder. I've gotten some major surprises that way, in both ways. "Repeat at least three times" is important, since we often respond to other factors we're not aware of. Often when we change one factor, we also change something else, which doesn't register on our awareness, because we weren't associating it with our problems.

    Okay, I admit that the testing process is a bit more difficult for factors that take time to show effects. For testing slow effects of metals, I'd want to work with a doctor, with blood tests. If it's a product I can easily do without or find alternatives to, it probably wouldn't be worth the effort. However, I wouldn't scream to the world that <fill in the blank> is evil/toxic/threat-to-all-life.

    I would like to say that aluminum-based antiperspirants aren't an issue for me. With CFS, I don't have a social life anyway, so sweaty armpits just don't make a difference. :p
     
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  16. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    every element or substance is toxic given the right dose. The trouble is it is a different amount for different things. There is a good reason why we don't make water pipes out of lead any more and have removed arsenic from paints etc, it's because they are toxic at much lower levels than other metals like copper aluminium and zinc etc.

    The use of these "lighter" metals is to do with how inert they are to our bodies and this is partly due to how common they are in our biochemistry and environment. You can still overdose on zinc ( even though the body needs it). What's missing in the "toxic brigades" logic is any understanding or clarification of toxic dose. It's presence doesn't mean that it is wrong. It's the amount and frequency of exposure that's important. There are also a whole load of misinterpretations about what form is toxic to us (elemental vs oxides etc) which makes a big difference.

    I saw a good Christmas lecture that showed that if you ate enough oranges, you would poison yourself. The thing that poisons you first would be the vitamin C, miles before any small pesticide residue left on the fruit could kill you. Luckily this is something like 3 wheelbarrows of oranges or something like that so we should all be safe.

    Aluminium is a safe metal. It sits high up on the periodic table (it's a metal more like magnesium sodium or potassium rather than lead or cadmium etc). It is also one of the most abundant minerals on the planet (like silica) so if it were toxic to our biochemistry we would have a pretty difficult time of it. Lead on the other hand is far less predominant in the natural environment so it makes sense that we haven't evolved to cope too well to exposure to it.

    Thought I had better be sensible today. Do watch out for cotton wool though.;)
     
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  17. MeganM

    MeganM

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    Suffice it to say that "aluminum is toxic for ME"...(as well as my clothes...I don't like my clothes glistening from the aluminum under my arms). Granted there are people who may be people who's organs are better able to filter out substances better than my organs, and my multiple chemical sensitivities and other sensitivities have gotten worse as I am now 63. My initial comment that aluminum was toxic was an attempt to say it CAN be toxic in response to whomever it was who posted in response to someone concerned about its toxicity for themselves. The response to their post sounded minimizing of the legitimacy of this person even raising the issue in this forum, and I felt like it is important to stress that it is a legitimate issue for people to be aware of as many with CFS have different reactions than the general population to things in the environment, and we should honor each persons quest to discover what is necessary for their own health. This is a journey each of us is on completely alone. The attitude of some posts on this thread is shocking. To make jokes about some of our experiences, and equate it with "woo woo" science, to dismiss alternative therapies that our own experience has proven helpful, to suggest paranoia and outright say that it it is all in our heads for some of us "fear of to toxicity is the problem", is an afront and insult to those of us who have spent decades educating ourselves, experimenting, and fine tuning what we know to be the truth about our own bodies, and in my opinion is the opposite of what I was expecting from people who are part of a group who is already stigmatized and made fun of and disbelieved by the medical community and society. All I ask is that the bullied, and even those who cannot relate to being bullied, please refrain from bullying others with dismissive, sarcastic remarks. If I want to be made fun of and negated, all I need do is go talk to my doctors and family. I joined this site for more open mindedness about CFS than exists in the general population. Treatment of CFS isn't even acknowledged in my area, let alone a hard science, so nobody is an expert except of themselves.
     
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  18. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    @MeganM Thank you for bringing this topic up. It's clear you provoked some interesting discussion.

    One important point is that too much of ANYTHING is toxic. The toxicity threshold varies from substance to substance and from creature to creature...

    Some of us are the proverbial "canaries in the coal mine." It is wise to be cognizant of what we put into our bodies and the potential risks and to have defensive strategies against these various risks.

    I watched the recent Nova program on PBS about the lead (and other) problems in the water in Flint, Michigan. It was shocking how many officials, even scientific ones, pooh-poohed the idea that the water could be toxic. The mayor even drank the water on the TV news to "prove" how safe the water was. Well, it wasn't safe at all and many were tragically poisoned.

    It is possible to remove toxins from our bodies. The CDC even provides guidance on doing so, with lessons learned from industrial poisonings. Many are tragically unaware that this can be done, calling people who do so "quacks." They are wrong. There is ample science behind chelating metals, if one wants to find it.

    All of us are toxic to some degree. Symptoms and disease we attribute to other causes may be/are linked to toxicity. We are fooling ourselves if we don't think its an issue.

    I certainly don't think its a main cause of ME/CFS, but I do think that for many of us, it's a confounding factor, and it'd be wise to avoid unneeded toxicity and investigate how toxic we may be and do something about it if warranted.

    As for antiperspirant, my favorite is "Primal Pit Paste." It works and its aluminum free!
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017 at 9:00 AM
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  19. MeganM

    MeganM

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    Learner, thanks for your response. I think toxicity is such an important topic. I've never thought if there being one "cause" of CFS, but like all health issues and diseases, it is a combination of circumstances/environment and predisposition. I have wondered if being sprayed by a crop duster plane while standing in a Cotten field next to my grandparents house when I was 8, about 1963 set me up for later medical issues. DDT was still legal then. I remember feeling sick for the rest of the day but never told anyone what happened. And then the severe mononucleosis when I was 18, always a possibility of a retrovirus. Who knows? All any of us can do is guess, and do our best to not stress our bodies any more than necessary. I know when I use my Japanese detox foot patches at night, I sleep better and wake up clearer headed and less achy. I know detoxing works because I'm a skeptic about everything, always questioning if something of a placebo effect, but often when I wake up I forget that I have them on, and get up and am surprised that I am free of the usual pains in my feet and body. It's like I feel lighter and younger...and then I remember when I notice my feet squishing that I wore the pads over night. I have done a lot of research on what goes into what brands and have found the best price for the only brand that works for me, actually is made in Japan and contains the most tourmaline available.
    I'm interested in learning everything I can about detoxing because I've seen the results, yet am reluctant to expose my body to scams as I'm so sensitive to everything. When that book came out in 1995 by Dr Ali, "The canary and Chronic Fatigue", it really resonated with me. Back then, I was so reactive to everything that I really needed to "live in a bubble" to keep from getting worse. Since noone really knows what CFS or what causes it, or even if all on this site are really suffering from the same thing, but all we can do is keep trying. I'm interested in any safe ways you or others may know of to detox so any tips and references are appreciated. I've never completely understood chelation....Some on other threads here call it quackery...which I don't buy, but it makes me nervous if there is something I should be concerned about with it, so any reliable resources would be appreciated. I have trouble with lymphocytic colitis and am scared to death of triggering that, so I've been strearing clear of some of the colon cleanses I have in my cupboard. So many detox and cleansing things seem like gimiks these days. Sometimes I think life was simpler before the entrepreneurs realized they could make lots of money off of folks like us.
    If that paste you use...terrible name! Is actually an antipersperents and not just a deodorizer, I sure will check it out. Fortunately I am not a heavy sweater, but it would sure come in handy at times when it really matters. Ive used Salt crystal for years but does not help with dryness. The Chinese Medicine practioner I've been seeing since 1993 did the heavy metals detox on me very early...gosh what a healing crisis I went through, but had faith in the process and sure enough a year or so later was much better, after suffering for years and trying things on my own with questionable results. After looking through some threads on here, Im surprised to discover that some folks think alternatives to western medicine are quackery. Our support group in my area has always been more inclined to work from all angles, use any methods available to reduce symptoms, and stay as much away from heavily marketed pharmaceutical drugs as possible. So many of us have weird reactions to medications anyway. I welcome some good references on chelation therapy and any other detox methods you may trust. Thanks again for your post.
     
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  20. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    You're welcome.

    I have safely and effectively used oral and IV DMSA, DMPS, EDTA and PolyMVA under a doctor's supervision, along with significant nutritional and botanical support for all my detox pathways and binders.

    I have gotten rid of lead, arsenic, cadmium, mercury, and platinum, with results monitored with blood and provoked urine tests.

    Chelation earned a bad rep early on because toxins were being mobilized without the support needed to get them out of the body, but it's quite safe when done patiently and thoughtfully.
     

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