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CONFIRMED FOLATE DEFICIENCIES - PLEASE POST HERE

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Jan 10, 2012.

  1. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Rich,

    is enada (nadh) the same as nadph?

    http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-ENADA-NADH-5-0-mg-30-Tablets/4855?at=0

    I may experiement with the folinic vs metafolin first or add in the enada if this is correct. I think it is from my memories of yasko work but want to make sure.

    Where do we find the correct tests:

    https://www.23andme.com/

    Thank you..



  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I take 400 mcg of folinic

    For starters, ditch that. It will take several days to wash out. Elliminate all folic acid from enriched cereals, Ensure, Instant Breakfast and similar things, whey, glutathione, NAC. Then after the couple days take 7.5-8.0 mg of Metafolin. Then take 3200mcg with each meal that has vegatable source food folate (folinic acid). Watch what symptoms go away. It takes cheilitis about 2 days to reverse direction and up to a month to heal fully. IBS can start fading after 5-6 days. Mood and personality changes can change in a couple of days. Inflammation can take up to 10 days or so to fade but start sooner. It's quite variable and that is what we are trying to identify, the mpst frequent and fastest changes going in and out.

    And... what's the cost of a folinic "Deficiency" that would develope form taking metafolin only?

    Healing starts if you folinic acid caused paradoxical folate deficiency, otherwise no symptoms at all of which I am aware.
  3. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Freddd. did I ask how you deal with glutahione deficiency? I am missing one glut gene (though heard many people are.. still.. )

    And yes, nerves calm down then sometimes or not an intense burning pain follows that I welcome over the frayed nerve feeling because it feels so unstable. My gait can go off during the frayed nerve feeling and the glut fixes or "fixes" that...

    My legs esp become packed with what feels like toxic soup.. hard lumps and edemic feeling though not visually edemic. Sever muscle weakness right now. I usually have no salt on hand and dont know how good a potassium supp that is but have made salty lemonade with it in past with real salt and no salt. I feel to edemic though to think of a salty lemonade. Sometimes I crave them.

    Thank you..

  4. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    I dont have the lip inflammation. And IBS is not a huge issue at least not lately. Could this still be an issue? For me, it sever muscle weakness, inflammation, and lately swelling in my face and a packed full of toxins feeling in my legs.

    Has taking that much metafolin that fast (not ramping up) caused anyone to crash? (not that im not already crashed).

    I want to give this a try but wondering if ramping up on he metafolin works ok. Thats 10 pills of solgar a day spread out over the day or at once? And 4 pills with meals containing folinic but staying away from high folinic (folate) foods as much as possible? no FA of course.

    If ramping up is ok... then is 800mcg a day for a while then adding up 800 mcg at a time workable until I feels safe going higher faster?

    I think Rich has mentioned some body processes requiring folinic and wondering how those fair without the folinic but also getting that with a folinic processing issue that maybe the body doesnt get to use it anyway??

    Would a person crave mb12 if there is a metafolin defiency? Could that be a reason and not a b12 defiency? though I think that would mean borrowing the methyl group form the b12 to give to folinic which would or not be able to convert to L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate?

    Thank you.

  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Soulfeast,

    I was on up to 2400mcg daily of Metafolin for 6 months after discontinuing glutathione precursors and it didn't help. Then someone suggested ramping that up a lot. It worked. After 6 months of continued downhill, a single dose of 8mg of Metafolin multiple 10mg injections of mb12 and several 50mg doses of adb12 I finally started turning it around. I had been doing 5mg injections of mb12 before that, also without effect. It took a lot more than my normal doses to overturn the effects of glutathione.


    I think Rich has mentioned some body processes requiring folinic and wondering how those fair without the folinic but also getting that with a folinic processing issue that maybe the body doesnt get to use it anyway??

    All you lose is the folate deficiency symptoms of paradoxical folate deficiency. There is an alternate pathway starting with methylfolate.


    caused anyone to crash?

    The Deplin, 7.5mg and 15mg says "generally well tolerated and side effects similar to placebo". On the other hand the side effects of Cerefolin NAC included severe folate deficiency symptoms otherwise known as "NAC detox" and "glutathione detox".

    I dont have the lip inflammation.

    HUH??? Are you meaning sores at the corners of the mouth?

    it sever muscle weakness, inflammation, and lately swelling in my face and

    Sounds like folate deficiency.
  6. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Cheilitis is a medical condition involving inflammation of the lip. I have never had the sores or inflammation.

    I developed frozen shoulder after I used CSM for the first time along with sever POTS. Recently after my sinus surgery ( sinus disease full of fungal balls from mold illness), I crashed again. Hoping detox once that load was taken away.. but feeling like death. So tired and weak. But also my other shoulder started to freeze up.. muscles hard knots like in a continual state of contraction and now wondering if this is the paradoxical folate deficiency and or potassium not getting into cells. The POTs as well.. I also developed tachy (with the POTS) and breathlessness that would not end for weeks, now a month. and that feeling when your leg feels like it is having tiny spasms all over .. like restless legs.. this increased. What struck me was I went back to massage therapist and the sole of one of my feet started "seizing up" in a bad cramp along with the tiny insane little muscle spasms all in that leg. Wondering again.. if this is from the potassium depletion esp.

    Im trying to catch up on your latests posts and explanations. Not yet understanding the paradoxical folate deficiency.

    I did stop the folinic. I am away from home and only brought enough supps for the time here, so taking the 400mcg of metafolin for now and took out the nac and glut. I have also been eating protein bars with whey.

    I will have to ramp up on metafolin. I am afraid of crashing. The safety notes may not be relevant to everyone esp with CFS-ME...??

    I did take 600mg of potassium today, 300 this am and the extreme muscle fatigue went right away.. still there but not near as severe. I think some of the edemic feeling is gone as well.. just dont feel as "stuffed."

    I think Rich has said that folinic perfoems other functions separate from methylation but I could be wrong about that. Hope so if this is an issue for me.

    Thanks, Freddd.

    Robin
  7. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Sounds like low potassium to me.
  8. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    The potassium has helped alot.. unbelievable and grateful for the info! Now to figure out, if I can, the paradoxical folate defiency and how glut interfers with b12. Is there a thread that explains this in detail? I am off folinic now. Does the folinic compete with the methylated form and win out in cells?
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Soulfeast,

    There are threads on both subjects.

    Let's call the paradoxical folate deficiency from folic acid PFD1, and the paradoxical folate deficiency from folinic acid/veggie food folate as PFD2. PFD2 I would expect to also contain PFD1.

    If the particular form can't be utilized by the body it builds up. The hypothesis is that it competes with the methylfolate and has a longer serum halflfe. particularly the folinic acid and hence fills up the transport system or something because it accumulates and the methylfolate is cleared rapidly.

    The glutathione combines with mb12 and adb12 inti glutathionylcobalamin and is immediateky flushed froim the body by the kidneys. This is very visible if one has enough b12 in the body to be viswible in the urione. Then when there is no b12 for use as a cofactor in a cell, the methyfolate is flushed from the cell (methyltrap). In a nutshell or two there it is.
    Athene likes this.
  10. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Do you have any idea how long it takes for the accumulated folic/folinic acid to flush out? Is this related to how much methylfolate is taken? Assuming no intake of folates through supplements, and a very low-folate diet. I'm wondering how long it takes to re-set to a new baseline.
  11. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I remember Freddd mentioned two weeks somewhere; correct me if I'm wrong.
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno,
    For me the folic acid subsided enough in 12-24 hours for metafolin to make a difference and about twice that for folinic. There is no reason to wait to start metafolin, it will go to work almost right away. It akes about 2 weeks for a lot of the symtoms to go away.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Talking about paradoxes ...

    Ferdinand Feghoot's wife heard a lot of carousing in the basement where he kept his time machine. Then she heard some distinctive sounds of female laughter. She went downstairs and saw her husband with a volutuous woman in 17th century French costuming on each arm. She said "Ferdinand, what's the meaning of this!"

    Ferdinand looked up to her on the stairs and said "My dear, haven't you heard of the pair of doxies of time?"
    L'engle likes this.
  14. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    Symptom of paradoxical folate deficiency --

    Reading the term "paradoxical folate deficiency" and being so brain fogged as to not know what in the heck it is!!!!
    Reading this thread (while in the fog) and not understanding what is being talked about unless one were to see a list of symptoms in big red letters.
    Reading the list of symptoms again (while in the fog) and not remembering having read it.
    Reading the list of symptoms, for perhaps a 4th or 5th time, and finally understanding that the folic (maybe folinic) acid(s) one is taking might be having adverse health effects.

    Once I get a steady state for a couple of weeks, I will test folinic also. Right now, I am just testing folic, but have to get through a probably full two week washout of neuropathy symptoms AND a k-drop to see what remains, then testing with folinic.

    angry rashes that may have been attributed to other things - acne, skin sensitive to things put on it.
    --The clearest my skin was actually came at a time that was doing a special diet for my stomach, which was also low folic/maybe low folinic, and my acne cleared up a TON.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rosebud,

    Just stop taking folic acid and folinic acid and take Metafolin right a way. You will know soon. You are making it far too complcated. Two week washout is nonsense and not needed. You wil know in a few days most likely.
  16. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I would like to test without folinic acid, which is in my B complex. I can order the Douglas Labs, but it might take up to a month for the shipping. So my question is: can I do without the B complex for now? Or is it better to continue and preload with methylfolate?
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Go to a drug store and buy a cheap minimal b-complex with folate of b12.
  18. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    Freddd,
    When I say testing folic or folinic, I am talking about doing what you mentioned -- just dietary. I ditched supplemental folic/folinic back in December if not longer ago, but I am trying to see how much blocking I can get if I take at least 3200 methylfolate before a meal, but I am somewhat deathly afraid of the leafy greens I love so dearly, and I don't want to start eating them again for a bit, at least until I am remembering to take the methylfolate before each meal. Tonight, we went out, I forgot my dose before the meal, but took a rescue dose of probably 9 mg sublingually as soon as I got home.

    I am seriously considering getting the compounding pharmacist to work up a 24 hour time release methylfolate of at least 15 mg, maybe 20. The docs and I are talking about it. I hate to have a two day set back just because I forgot my dose.

    another symptom of PFD-- The mouth sores that many people get at start up I got again after my bad folic acid week after they had been gone a couple of weeks. It was notable. I did not have neuropathy on the bottoms of my feet after hyperbarics today, which was good.
  19. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    Yes, I will go have some potassium right now.
  20. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    confirmed folate deficiency ---
    possible symptom -

    An even meal was had without pre-loading, and the next morning was rough....headache, catching a cold, mucous was thicker, and sinuses were starting up. from just one exposure to folic fortified foods. -- maybe

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