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Conclusion - I NEED Glutathione (mthfr, problems with b vitamins, and absorbtion)

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by DFams, Oct 8, 2016.

  1. DFams


    TL;DR Version

    I have terrible health problems, especially my digestion, also have MTHFR (and likely other mutations), copper problems, etc. 100% certain of being an "overmethylator" or what that means to some MTHFR specialists (high seratonin, low histamine - "histapenia", and clearly have some major issues with my transsulfation pathway).

    The answer to EVERYTHING, for my health however, is apparently Glutathione. And lacking it, is THE reason I'm this sick and unable to get better... I am certain of this after taking Lyposomal GSH. But it's wasn't enough, so I need to get tested for it, and ultimately (hopefully) get it by injections, or IV, or SOMETHING that helps my Glutathione levels. It is THE way, and the only way, I will ever get better - since my MTHFR treatment has STOPPED working. But my doctor's are idiots, and stubborn, obstinate fools. Can't get them to order any more tests. Don't know of any MTHFR/glutathione specialists, much less if my insurance will accept any such treatments.

    I've also come to the conclusion that lacking Glutathione is completely responsible for my poor digestion, which is BY FAR, my biggest complaint, and also my biggest hurdle in getting better... being unable to absorb the nutrients/supplements I need to get better.

    So my questions for this forum are as follows...

    1) What is the best way to proceed from here? Find a doctor who specializes in glutathione/treatment? Or how can I convince my doctor to test for it?
    2) Are there even "glutathione specialists" or types of doctors (hematologist, rheumatologist, gastro, whatever) who would be more knowledgeable of that particular pathway, who might have a brain, and be able to assist me in testing, understanding, and treatment of this?
    3) Does insurance usually cover said treatment? I can't work, due to being this sick, so I'm on state Medicare
    4) Would stopping my MTHFR treatment be necessary, or wise, for said tests - especially since if I stop ... my kidneys will probably shut down, as explained below.
    5) Looking for an MTHFR specialist to actually get better... but the one's who claim to be as such, don't take my insurance on appointments (tests they order do though, apparently). Or are there any particular type of doctor that has better knowledge than others of MTHFR

    So far I've seen my primary, a GI, and a hematologist... all of which are trying to tell me MTHFR really is only a "blood and cardiovascular thing" and there's little evidence to anything else, or even the blood thing in the first place. Despite the mountains of evidence and studies and doctors out there, even in this country, telling people and other doctors to the contrary.

    So it would have to be a doctor who might be "up to date" on this information, and not reading out of a textbook from the 90s.
    6) If folate, b12, and b2, even my methylated B complex, all seem to have stopped working, because I have so much "oxidative damage", or whatever reason - that they aren't absorbed properly, much less causing any methylation to happen - is there anything else I can do to get them, or methylation, to work again?

    Since other glutathione cofactors don't seem to work, and seem to absorb even worse than the B vitamins, or cause MORE oxidative damage (as with every food and supplement I eat, no mater how "healthy"). Even lypo glutathione, and that works... but barely (haven't tried pill form, since I heard it really doesn't help and I can't afford to waste money) . The fact that it's a fat I have to absorb, and hard on my digestion, kinda defeats the purpose.
    7) Anything else at all, anyone can give me for advice...

    The Longer Version (might be insightful to those trying to help, and to others seeking help... but also a bit ranty, sorry)

    I'm 32 and I've been sick for forever, literally, my entire life. But the worst of it, the past 6-7 years, by far. Trying and trying and trying to figure out what's wrong with me, tried every protocol, diet, supplement, herb, whatever, on the face of the planet - nothing. Meds from doctors have only made me worse, sicker, more/new symptoms, etc

    Finally found out that MTHFR exists, when my mother told me about it not long ago, and that our entire family has it (relatives and all) and is the cause of a ton of their problems... went to my doctor (against all logic, and out of desperation since they're basically what made me this bad, with all their meds, in the first place). Went through hell just to get her to do the test, couldn't get any other SNP, or MTHFR related tests out of her.

    Even though I'm 100% certain of the fact that I have other mutations, likely quite a few of them. In particular ones that cause me to be

    Don't even know why she's so against doing tests, she's a new doctor for me. I gave no indication that I hated doctors (for reasons above), was completely willing to do everything she wanted, not pushy, am extremely polite (despite my endless frustration), and only 'asked' for a couple other tests before this. Most tests that I asked for, or that she ordered on her own, have shown that I CLEARLY have something very wrong with me, going on.

    Blood in my urine, protein in my urine, kidney problems (a constant complaint of mine), liver enzymes elevated for a straight 5 years now, and ofc the last one being the MTHFR diagnosis that she tried to tell me "I don't even have the mutation at all, because it's not homozygous (from both of my parents)". FACEPALM. One doctor even insisted I was a tremendous alcoholic after looking at some GI test they did... despite my mom telling him I hadn't had a drop in years.

    Anyway... after my kidneys basically shutting down, complaints of terrible digestive problems for over 15 years, complaints of liver issues, detox issues, pains that you wouldn't believe, all different kinds of literally nonstop headaches and migraines, etc etc - and basically 0 real concern/response/help from my doctors. I took matters into my own hands... again (as I've been basically doing for the past 17-18 years).

    Researched and took the MTHFR treatment on my own... SUCCESS!! Finally found something that actually WORKED, for once EVER. Something that actually made a positive benefit to me... despite having to go through "methylation hell". Taking mostly folate, b12, b2, I made leaps and bounds, and regardless of side effects... actually FINALLY felt like I was actually making some progress... my digestion was improving, my migraines (particularly the last, terrible new one) were going away, I could SLEEP (worst insomnia my whole life), I was actually urinating again...

    Oh btw, did I mentioned I STOPPED PEEING? Flat out, just stopped urinating before this treatment. Was eating healthy (veggies and meat only, no spices/oils/butter), drinking lots of water, exercising, going to bed early... and somehow actually GAINING weight. Drank 1/4-1/3 gallon of water a day... pee'd maybe 2 oz, per day. On top of kidney pain so bad it kept me up all night. No concern to my doctor (imagine that).

    So anyway... after about 3 months of solid improvement, and even "methylation hell" going away, it all just suddenly STOPPED. That's right, just out of the blue... folate slowly stops being effective, b2 makes me WORSE, and I can't digest b12 in ANY form or ANY way of taking it (even sublingual - just destroys my stomach). Tried increasing the doses, particularly folate... nothing.

    So I went online, did more research... even came here and found people discussing glutathione, and that after a while that phase of the liver/pathway needs to be treated. Especially considering that's basically MTHFR/folate's ultimate job... is pushing cysteine towards glutathione, rather than homocysteine.

    SO I go through another few months, frantically (losing my freaking mind because something FINALLY HELPED ME and then just STOPPED) trying to get my body to produce more glutathione... trying all the co-factors... different combinations of the original B vitamins I was taking, different foods, more types of exercise... nothing. Just, no help. Even bought a Methylated B complex and took that... that helped... but not even freaking close to enough. Zinc also had a good effect on me a couple years ago, but that ended quickly when I could no longer digest it... now it just flat out destroys my stomach.

    Just a few days ago, randomly tried taking the Lyposomal Glutathione I bought a year ago (expired now, wonderful lol)... AMAZING. The thing that made me feel MUCH worse when I took it the first couple times a year ago (cannot digest fats well at all... probably the worst problem I have, and lypo GSH is a fat), suddenly WORKED. And not only did it work... it relieved a ton of my digestive complaints, kidney pains, migraines, body aches, etc...

    And not only that... oddly enough, when I took my methylated B complex (but not folate/b12/b2 by themselves) AFTER taking this lypo GSH, the methylation hell symptoms came rushing back... meaning the "methylation" from these vitamins was actually working again, not to mention the vitamins themselves... so maybe it was just an absorbtion thing all along, and glutathione actually helped that, I guess?

    Well, problem is... as with everything... after a few days. THAT stopped working, too. Or at least, it's not as effective... only because I simply cannot digest it well enough. Like I said, very bad fat digestion problems... and it seems that with how bad my body is, the glutathione gets used up faster than I can absorb it..... SO, I'm basically just going around in circles with my body, getting worse and worse as time goes on... I can't digest the nutrients I need to make glutathione and heal, because my digestion is so bad due to lacking glutathione, due to lacking the nutrients needed to make it...

    So here I am, ranting on these forums with even just a small percentage of my full story. Currently trying different combinations of things to get the glutathione to work again (taking it every other day, 2 packets every 3 days, taking it with glutamine (don't know if that did anything at all), alternating b complex, etc)... but also trying get my body to a point where it can start producing it on it's own again. And looking for help from any who can offer it...

    Any information on this at all would be appreciated beyond words... even if it's just a hunch. But please specify if it is or not...
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2016
  2. OK - and now I'm not sure if this posted but I've moved to the laptop and the draft is still there, so phew!

    Everything I write is definitely in "hunch" territory, and maybe no help at all. That's my disclaimer. :)

    So wow, I can relate to the frustration. Not sure I can help much either other than to commiserate but we're both in our 30s and for some reason that made your post resonate with me.

    Probably 99.9% of doctors ARE idiots when it comes to helping us - and as you've found out, the ones who can help mostly don't take insurance.

    So unfortunately no help there. About glutathione: I've heard good things about acetyl-glutathione, which is not cheap but I think less than liposomal (funny, I just threw out some that had expired!)

    It's in tablet form though so don't know if you could stomach it..

    I stopped taking GSH when I read poster Freddd's views and bad experiences with it. Then had a bad experience myself when I tried precursors again, which I may still be recovering from almost 4 months later..

    It might not be true for you, but it could also explain how it made methylation supps work again. What he thinks it does, is combine with all the active B12 in your body, which is then rapidly eliminated in the urine as glutathionyl-cobalamin.

    So it might have given you a case of acute B12 (and folate since the cell needs one to hold onto the other) deficiency. Then you would get "start-up" symptoms (aka "hell") again.

    Many don't agree with him, but he seems very sure and if right it could imply that the supps didn't necessarily stop working, but instead you hit a plateau and now need to find the next piece in the puzzle that your body is missing.

    He has lists of mostly basic stuff he thinks everybody needs, and then some like Sam-E and D-ribose, which help some people a lot and others not at all.

    Sorry if you already know this stuff from the forums and/or have good reasons for thinking externally-given glutathione really is what you need!

    But it IS expensive, so hopefully there are ways to get the body to make what it needs (as I think you wrote, properly working methylation is supposed to provide all that you need - no more, no less).

    Has digestion always been a problem? I've had issues off and on (but mostly on) since my very early 20s. Once it was because of too much regular vitamin C (plain old ascorbic acid). Took me years to figure out that was causing me so much pain .. and other stuff!

    Usually it's not that simple, but you never know. Hope you can find something that helps with that so you can tolerate everything else. And sorry doctors are so unhelpful. Maybe in 100 years it will be different. :p
  3. I should add that I'm pretty sure I'm an under-methylator. BUT, I'm not sure I believe that over-methylation is a real "thing" - but that's very much a hunch-thing based on my own experience, where it turned out increasing methylation supplements (and potassium) was always the answer. Or that's what I think today anyway. Since I'm better but far from "cured", I'm more of a study on how much stuff somebody can take without killing himself than a role model. ;)

    But briefly my logic on it is that symptoms of over-methylation are normally what Freddd calls "ATP start-up" and they go away if people are able to stick with it. My intuition tells me that things either need to be methylated, or they have nothing to do with methylation. So you're either methylating enough, or not enough, but "too much" doesn't really mean anything. But honestly - nobody really knows anything, which is what makes all our stuff so freaking frustrating.

    Oh, and what your doctor said about the MTHFR gene being recessive isn't necessarily wrong. But that whole area is SO much more complex than one or two SMPs, and Freddd says genes don't seem to say much about who benefits from his Active B-12s Protocol so I suspect that that test might be helpful in convincing them if you're double-positive, but unfortunately not otherwise. It's like how they treat thyroid based purely on the TSH test, even if you have clear hypothyroid symptoms. I think both things are particularly stupid because the treatments for either are statistically probably safer than giving somebody a baby aspirin! So why they don't let suffering people try things that might help is beyond me. (Well, money is part of it but there's also a sort of arrogance they must teach at med school..).

    I'm heterozygous for A1298C (?) and don't have the other, better known, one at all, but my mood and fibromyalgia pain have definitely improved as I've gotten closer to actually following Fredd's suggestions (which also involves giving up as many other things as is practical, because so many drugs and herbs apparently interfere with methylation or folate-uptake, and for some reason many people can't take high doses of B1, B2, and B3 and maybe other B's when they're getting enough methyl-B12, adenosyl-B12, methyfolate, and l-carnitine fumarate - or acetyl-l-carnitine in some cases. But then others swear they do need high doses, and they might be right because of malabsorption, or who knows?).

    Just noticed my signature. Fact check (lol): I've never really tried going "low and slow". I did try nothing for a while, and that did NOT work.. Must be what my brain-fogged mind meant.
  4. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Why don't you detail them? In your post, you have hardly said anything about the nature of your health problems. You have not detailed your symptoms, you have not detailed what illnesses doctors have diagnosed you with, you have not said what illnesses you yourself think you might have.You have not provided any of your medical history (eg, infections, toxic exposures, etc). You have not provided any details of the severity of your illness (ie, do you work/study, are you housebound and unable to work, are you bedbound?).

    If you are asking for some ideas and suggestions about improving your health, it would help to know what you are suffering from.

    OK, so glutathione you find quite helpful. You can try buying some glutathione powder, and administering this transdermally on your skin. This can be a good way to absorb glutathione. You can rub say a gram of glutathione powder on the skin of your thighs, and then just add a few drops of water to help it absorb.

    You can also try taking glutathione-supporting supplements like N-acetyl-cysteine transdermally.

    It may not be wise to place all your eggs in one basket, regarding the factors that may be underpinning your ill health.

    You many want to read some of the skeptical articles on this currently fashionable but unproven idea that MTHFR polymorphisms cause a whole array of illnesses:
    Dubious MTHFR genetic mutation testing « Science-Based Medicine

    Everyone has many thousands of mutations. Generally nothing to worry about.

    Did you doctor diagnose you with kidney pain, or is it your own diagnosis? I ask because it is also possible to have pain coming from the muscles in the kidney area, and it can be hard to work out the actual source of the pain.

    You may want to see your doctor about this pain, and see if he can work out where it is coming from.

    This is not at all unusual in the case of ME/CFS patients. In ME/CFS it is a very regular occurrence for drugs or supplements that were helping at one stage, to suddenly stop working, for no apparent reason.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2016
    justy, Critterina and matt3n like this.
  5. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

    Arizona, USA
    How about a 4R gut-rebuilding program? It seems like maybe your gut issues are overshadowing the other things - again, hard to tell since you omit symptoms.

    Also, in your thousands of tests from hundreds of doctors, did your morning cortisol check out OK? Did you have an ACTH test? I ask because nocturnal bilateral flank pain (which I would have described as kidney pain) can be an adrenal crisis symptom, although the insomnia would be independent of the pain (you might always have insomnia, whether or not you had the pain).
  6. PatJ

    PatJ Forum Support Assistant

    Terry Naturally Glutathione is a small tablet that melts slowly in the mouth. Maybe the slower delivery would help reduce the digestive difficulty?

    This form of glutathione has worked well for me, although it took about two weeks before I noticed the very positive effects on my mood, enthusiasm, and reduced sensitivity to certain types of light and sound. I now consider it to be an essential, life changing supplement for me.

    Have you tried using a digestive enzyme that contains lipase to help with fat digestion?
  7. Malachi


    I'm new here, so please forgive me if I'm "green" on this, but.. what about coffee enema's? Have you tried that to get glutathione?
  8. DFams


    Thanks for the responses so far. Currently far too tired/exhausted to make proper responses to the comments here atm, but I'll try and do so soon...

    But I will say that I'm not looking to be diagnosed, either by doctor or on here. I've been through it 'all' already. I've tried every protocol, diet, and supplement (enzymes included which actually make my digestion worse), drug, and type of doctor in existence that could have to do with my giant list of symptoms. Which is btw is too long and mostly irrelevant to this thread, since as I said in my OP, I already know what the problem is. I just need to get tested for it so I can get the treatment.

    I appreciate the replies so far, although without trying to sound rude in the least, I'd appreciate more specific answers to my listed questions, and although I know my post a big ranty mess, please understand that I said the things I said for a reason. About MTHFR, my certainty of glutathione deficiency, overmethylation, mutations, etc.

    Atm I'm just looking for answers. Although Acetyl Glutathione has very much sparked my interest... and something I think I want to try for sure. I think I'll make a seperate thread asking some (brief) questions about it before I go spending that much though.
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  9. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

    Hayden, Idaho
    from my personal experience, there is certainly a point where supplements stop becoming effective and too many actually hampers your progress. Im really big on looking at elements in one's diet that may potentially be missing form normal status due to poor digestive capability. In other words, rather than focusing on trying to plug every potential hole in each biochemical reaction in the body, we want to look at both SNP related deficiencies, and also nutrients we should be getting from diet that may be lacking. for example, it would be ideal to be taking b-vitamins that should be in diet, rather than trying to take every methylation co-factor possible. In the beginning of every regimen, it can help to have more supplements in your toolkit, but ultimately this can be more harmful than not if carried on for too long. Doses should always be titrated up, rather than bombarded in a blunt force manner. Also, after a while, supplements should not have as much of an impact, because if they are working properly, then your body is utilizing them in the correct manner, and it becomes much more routine in nature. This may be part of your frustration, as you may not feel as if you are "buzzed" by your supplements, when in fact, they could simply be working as they should. I have fallen into that trap, where I get disappointed by my supplements losing effectiveness, when I realize that as a whole, I am functioning better. One last thing that many people tend to overlook- some supplements, especially B-Vitamins, degrade over time, and dont work as well as when you first bought them. B-12 is notorious for doing this, and by the time I finish a sublingual bottle, I am basically eating candy for all that it matters. This could potentially be an issue for you as well. Good luck and feel free to ask away on the forums here.
    PatJ and PeterPositive like this.
  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    If you look at the link I posted earlier, it provides a link to a list of MTHFR specialists:
    Ben Lynch has removed the list recently, but you can still find the original list on the Wayback Machine. I'll just post this list below:

    Briana Gunn, ND
    Perth, Western Australia

    Carolyn Ledowsky
    BHSc (Naturopathy), BHSc (Herbal Medicine)
    MTHFR Support Australia
    Neutral Bay, NSW

    Karen Green
    BHSc (Nutritional Medicine), Adv. Diploma Naturopathy & Herbalism, Fitgenes Practitioner, NLP Practitioner, Bachelor of Education (Adult Trainer)
    Queensland, Newcastle and Skype Consultations available. Member NHAA.

    Lisa McDonald
    BA, Masters Management and Advanced Diploma Naturopathy
    Sydney, NSW

    Kate Norris, MBChB FRACGP MACNEM
    Peninsula Holistic General Practice
    Rosebud, Victoria

    Kate Powe
    Adv. Dip. Naturopathy; B.A
    Sydney, NSW

    Kylie Seaton BHSc (Nat), Adv Dips Nat, WHM, Hom, Nut
    Kylie Seaton Naturopath Homeopath
    Sydney, NSW

    Patricia Vandenberg- Smith
    BHSci (Naturopathy)
    Journey To Health
    Western Sydney, NSW

    Claudette Wadsworth
    BHSc, BA, Adv DN, Nut D, DRM, PostGrad NFM, MATMS, MNHAA
    Better Health Clinic
    Bondi Junction, NSW

    Dorota Wroblewska
    BHSc, Adv. Dip. of Naturopathy, Adv. Dip. of Western Herbal Medicine, Adv. Dip. of Homeopathy, Diploma of Nutrition
    Randwick, NSW

    Min Yeo
    MBBS FRACGP M.Mus (Dist), F Mus A
    2 Heeley St
    Paddington, NSW

    Marie Lacey
    BHSc (Complementary Medicine)
    Carrara, QLD

    Colleen Rowe
    BHSc (Naturopathy)
    Colleen Rowe Naturopath
    Ashgrove, QLD

    Michael Smith
    BHSc (Naturopathy and Nutrition)
    Planet Naturopath
    Agnes Water, QLD

    Lyn de Silva
    DHM, DCH, ND
    Healing Oasis
    Montville, QLD

    Rohan Smith
    BHSc (Nutritional Medicine)
    Adelaide, SA

    Karen Chipperton, RN, ND, HD, Dip. Nut.
    The Blossom Clinic
    Melbourne, Victoria

    Anne Digby
    M. Repro Med (current), M. Public Health, B Midwifery, Grad Dip West Herb Med, ND
    Melbourne, Victoria

    Alessandra Edwards
    BHSc (Herbal Medicine) Adv Dip (Naturopathy) FitGenes certified practitioner
    Reclaim Your Health
    Melbourne, Victoria

    Susan Hunter
    BHSc (Naturopathy)
    Melbourne, Victoria

    Samantha Marks
    BHSc (Naturopathy)
    Melbourne, Victoria

    Cheryl Penna
    BHSc (Naturopathy)
    Certification with A4M / A5M anti-aging medicine
    Certification with ACNEM in Australia
    Northcote, Victoria

    Shirley Strachan
    BHSc (Complementary Medicine)
    Geelong, Victoria

    Kaye Wright
    BHSc (Naturopathy)
    Melbourne, Victoria

    Madeleine David, BNatTher, AdvDipNat, BA (Psych),MANTA,MNHAA
    Perth, Western Australia

    Serena Kay
    BSc (Immunology, Zoology)
    Advanced Diplomas: Naturopathy, Homeopathy, Western Herbal Medicine
    Tara Health Centre
    Perth, Western Australia

    Dr.Sanjeev Sharma, MD(Psychiatry)FRANZCP
    Consultant Psychiatrist
    Abbotsford Psychiatry
    Perth, Western Australia

    Kaleigh Coolsaet, BSc, ND
    Marine Drive Naturopathic Clinic
    North Vancouver, BC

    Sacha Elliott, ND
    Canopy Integrated Health
    North Vancouver, BC

    Jennifer Forgeron, ND
    Yorkville Integrative Health Clinic
    Toronto, ON

    The Hoffman Centre for Integrative Medicine
    Dr. Bruce Hoffman, MSc, MBChB, FAARFM
    Calgary, AB

    Meaghan McCollum, ND
    Calgary, AB

    Fiona McCulloch, BSc ND
    White Lotus Integrative Medicine
    Toronto, ON

    Bryan Rade, ND
    Sackville Naturopathic Centre
    Halifax, NS

    Beatriz Gallagher, CNS, PhD
    Integrity Dental & Medical
    Chapala, Jalisco

    South Korea
    Jungwuk Park,MD.Ph D.
    Korean Society of Integrative Functional Medicine
    Seoul, South Korea

    Seog Sam Park,MD
    Korean Society of Integrative Functional Medicine
    Seoul, South Korea

    United Kingdom
    Angela Bailey, BA(Hons), Dip RSA, DipION
    Cheshire Natural Health Clinic
    Cheshire, UK

    Jack Galloway, BA(Hons), CISSN, mlFM
    London, UK

    Liz McWatt, RGN,DNMed,MLCHom,DA,DTM
    Holistic Healing
    Cumbria & Lancashire, U.K.

    Anne Pemberton, BSc(Hon), PGCE(autism),RGN,Dip.ION, MSc (nutritional medicine)
    Leeds and York, UK

    Tom Sokolowski, MA,Dip NT,ND
    Wisdom Nutrition
    London & Devon, UK


    Dane Buxbaum N.D. PLLC
    Naturopathic Primary Care emphasizing Dietary & Lifestyle Medicine
    Phoenix, AZ

    Robin Terranella, NMD
    Southwest Integrative Medicine
    Phoenix, AZ


    Joseph Aiello, DO
    San Diego Center For Integrative Medicine
    La Mesa, CA

    Lynn Altieri-Need, FDN
    Advocate for Healing
    Mammoth Lakes, CA

    Amy Charnay, CNS/RYT
    Amy Charnay
    Santa Rosa, CA

    Jim Cross, N.D., L. Ac.
    We Are On Common Ground
    Quincy, CA

    David Daily, ND
    The Center for Health and Wellbeing
    San Diego, CA

    Reed Davis, CN
    Functional Diagnostic Nutrition
    Poway, CA

    Dr. Afrouz Demehri, ND
    Costa Mesa, CA

    Sharon Dittmer, DC
    Vitality & Wellness Center
    San Rafael, CA

    Teray Garchitorena Kunishi, ND
    Deeply Happy
    Berkeley, CA

    Sheila George, MD/CA
    Center for Metabolic Wellness
    Los Angeles, CA

    J. Claire Green, ND, Nutrition, Homeopathy
    Santa Rosa, CA

    Angela Griffiths, DC
    Griffiths Functional Medicine & Chiropractic
    Pleasanton, CA

    Bridget Grusecki, ND
    Radiant Health
    Sebastopol, CA

    Santa Rosa, CA

    Simon Hodson, MA
    Tam Counseling
    San Francisco, CA

    Camille Holstein, ND
    Heavenly Inspiration Wellness Center
    Clovis, CA

    Donna Kelley, CN
    Concepts of Optimal Nutrition
    Sutter Creek, CA

    Elizabeth Korza, ND
    Berkeley Naturopathic Medical Group
    Berkeley , CA

    Christina Martinez, ND
    San Diego Center For Integrative Medicine
    La Mesa, CA

    Robert Mathis, MD
    Baseline Health
    Santa Barbara, CA

    Lily Mazzarella, CNS
    Santa Rosa, CA

    Ricardo Miranda, L.Ac.
    Westside Acupuncture & Wellness Center
    Los Angeles, CA

    Dr. Andrea Rosario, DC
    Functional Longevity Institute
    Sacramento, CA

    Trudy Scott, CN
    Food, Mood & Women’s Health
    Rancho Cordova, CA

    Barbara Solomon, MS CNS
    Functional Health
    San Diego, CA

    Tara Stoop, ND
    Berkeley Naturopathic Medical Group
    Berkeley , CA

    Sheila Wagner, PT/CN
    Finally Fix Your Health
    Larkspur, CA

    Bernhoft Center for Advanced Medicine
    Los Angeles, CA


    Carrie Ballus, FNP-C
    Boulder Integrative Health
    Boulder, CO

    Randy Bimestefer, L.Ac.(N.C.C.A.)
    Denver, CO

    Jill C. Carnahan, MD
    Flatiron Functional Medicine
    Boulder, CO

    Gail Dawson, NP
    Wholeness Center
    Fort Collins, CO

    Terri Fox, MD
    Holistica Integrative Care
    Boulder, CO

    Fred Grover Jr. M.D. FAAFP
    Integrative, Functional, Anti-Aging and Wellness-Oriented Primary Care
    Denver, CO

    Shelby Kahl, RDH/PC
    Shelby L. Kahl
    Fort Collins, CO

    Carol Lipper, MD/ABIM/ABIHM
    Carol Lipper, MD, LLC
    Denver, CO

    Steve Ottersberg, MS
    Namaste Health Center
    Durango, CO

    Shelese Pratt, ND
    Flatirons Naturopathic Clinic
    Niwot, CO

    Francesca Quinn, ND/CMT
    Vitality Natural Medicine
    Denver, CO

    Mary Shackelton, ND
    Holistica Integrative Care
    Boulder, CO

    Jacqui Slavin, DC
    Functional Wellness
    Denver and Avon, CO

    Coleen Walsh, MFA/NTP
    Harvesting Nutrition
    Denver, CO

    Nasha Winters, ND/LAc
    Namaste Health Center
    Durango, CO


    Kendra Becker, ND, FNP, APRN
    Family Wellness Centre of Connecticut
    Waterford, CT

    Christine Louden, ND
    Connecticut Center for Health
    West Hartford, CT

    Carol Mann
    New England Brain Training Associates
    Stonington, CT

    Henry Sobo, MD
    Optimal Health Medical, LLC
    Stamford, CT


    Steven D’Antonio, ND, AP
    Whole Family Healthcare
    Winter Park, FL

    Aylin Ozdemir, MD/FAAP/ABIHM
    Pediatric Associates of Jacksonville
    Ponte Vedra, FL

    Maggie Ruiz-Paedae, DOM, AP, NT
    Dr. Maggie – Evidence-Based Medicine
    Orlando Fl, 32819


    Sage Campione, D.O.
    Dr. Sage
    Saint Simons Island, GA


    Laurie Steelsmith N.D., L.Ac.
    Steelsmith Natural Health Center
    Honolulu, HI

    Sarah Strong, ND
    Hilo Natural Health Clinic
    Hilo, HI


    Monika Buerger, BA,DC
    Eagle Canyon Wellness Center
    Ammon, ID

    Susan Hegstad, MD
    Boise, ID

    Amy McDougal, Pharm.D
    Teton Sage
    Rexburg, Idaho

    Sara Rodgers, ND/CAc
    Idaho Naturopathic Medicine
    Boise, ID


    Rindie Coker, DN
    Rindie Coker
    Villa Park, IL

    Annette Kohn-Lau, ND, CTN
    Cottonwood Healing Center
    Northbrook, IL

    Alicia Miller, ND
    Natural Care Clinic
    Naperville, IL

    Heather Shannon, LCPC, CHC
    HWCA of Chicago
    Chicago, IL

    Cynthia Smith
    Life Zone Wellness LLC
    Chicago, IL

    Mary Veltri, BSN
    Healthy Foundations
    Northbrook, IL


    Steve Pfeifer, MD
    Health & Wellness of Carmel
    Indianapolis, IN


    Stephanie Gray, DNP, ARNP
    Integrative Health and Hormone Clinic
    Cedar Rapids, IA


    Debbie Hannan, DC
    Chiropractic Health Center
    Metairie, LA


    Lowell I Gerber, MD MS FACC
    Lifestyle & Age Management Medicine
    Freeport, ME

    Bethany Hays, MD/FACOG
    True North Health center
    Falmouth, ME

    Corrie Merinaro, ND
    New England Naturopathic Health
    Waterville, ME

    Aline R. Potvin, ND
    Heartwood Family Health
    Farmington, ME


    Marjie C. Andrejciw, MT (ASCP), MS, NC
    Circle of Life Nutrition
    Fenton, MI

    Tony L Boggess, D.O.
    Natural Balance Wellness Medical Center
    Ann Arbor, MI

    Michelle Crowder, ND
    Rochester Hills, MI

    Doug Cutler, ND
    Cutler Integrative Medicine
    Southfield, MI


    Sara Jean Barrett, ND
    Alternative Solutions for Health
    Minneapolis, MN

    Helen C. Healy, ND
    Wellspring Clinic
    St. Paul, MN

    Lori Hulsing, ND
    All Seasons Integrative Health
    Minneapolis, MN

    Steven Parnell, MD
    Dulcimer Medical Center
    Fairmont, MN

    Hugh Wegwerth, D.C.
    Bandana Chiropractic and Wellness Center
    Minneapolis, MN

    Bernarda Zenker, MD
    Trinity Integrative Medicine
    Burnsville, MN


    Emily Hecker DC, CNC, BS
    Thrive for Life | Integrative Nutrition
    Frontenac, MO

    Robert Kessinger, DC
    Kessinger Health & Wellness Diagnostics Centre
    Rolla, MO

    Rhonda Simons, DO
    Image Evolutions – Wellness & Beauty
    Kansas City, MO

    Rajiv Yadava, DO
    Des Peres Hospital
    St. Louis, MO

    New Jersey

    Elaine Hardy, MS, RN, APN, C
    Holistic Family Healthcare, PC
    Hackettstown, NJ

    Melissa Josselson, ND
    Melissa Josselson
    Cherry Hill, NJ

    New Mexico

    Wholistic Kinesiology Center
    Los Ranchos, NM

    New York

    Jill Cruz, MS, CNS
    Health Is Freedom, LLC
    Spring Valley, NY

    Sheila George, MD/CA
    Center for Metabolic Wellness
    New York, NY

    Mary Gocke, RD/CDN
    Blum Center for Health
    Rye Brook, NY

    Anne VanCouvering, ND/CNS/LMT
    Hamptons Naturopathic
    Sag Harbor, NY

    Christian Wenstedt
    Vital Objectives Health Education & Coaching
    New York, NY

    North Carolina

    Marie Andersson, DC
    Sage Wellness Group
    Hendersonville, NC

    Michael Citron MS, MD
    Raleigh, NC


    Ed Hemeyer, MD
    NOMS Allergy & Environmental Family Medicine
    Bellevue, OH

    Keith Ungar, DC
    Functional Endocrinology of Ohio
    Akron & Independence, OH

    Patty Shipley, ND, NP, RN
    Leaves of Life
    Columbus, Ohio


    Michael D Leu, ND, Pharm. D
    Dr. Leu’s Pathways to Wellness
    Jenks, OK


    Alicia Bigelow, ND
    National College of Natural Medicine Clinic
    Portland, OR

    Shannon Brown, ND/LAc
    Dr. Brown House Calls
    Portland, OR

    Julie Brush, ND
    2bwell Clinic
    Portland, OR

    Jennifer Curtis, ND
    Nature’s Path Family Wellness
    Portland, OR

    Lisa Dickinson, ND
    Lisa Dickinson
    Portland, OR

    Signy Erickson, LMT/DC
    Light Works Healing Arts
    Bend, OR

    Usha Honeyman, DC/ND/DABCI
    Dr. Honeyman
    Corvallis, OR

    Chris Kleronomos, FNP-BC/DAAPM/DAOM-LAc
    Fibromyalgia & Neuromuscular Pain Center of Oregon
    Corvallis, OR

    Larry Lubcke, DC, DABCO
    Health Touch Chiropractic
    Tigard, OR

    Julie Martin, DC
    Chiropractic & Individualized Medicine
    Sisters, OR

    Cristin McQueen, FNP
    Portland, OR

    Jennifer Means, ND/LAc
    Singing River Natural Medicine
    Beaverton, OR

    Linda Meloche, ND/LAc
    Abbey Road Clinic
    Carlton, OR

    Elissa Mendenhall, ND
    Amenda Clinic
    Portland, OR

    Molly O’Neill, ND/LAc
    Bloom Natural Healthcare
    Portland, OR

    Virginia A. Oram, ND
    Blair Centre for Natural Medicine
    Eugene, Oregon

    Erica Peirson, ND
    Down Syndrome Treatment Center of Oregon
    Portland, OR

    Stacey Raffety, ND/LAc
    Tigard Holistic Health Clinic
    Tigard, OR

    Kelly Raylinsky,ND
    Pearl Natural Health
    Portland, OR

    Jens Riogeist, L.AC.
    Newberg Natural Health Center
    Newberg, OR

    Louise Rose, ND
    Rose Cabinet Medicine
    Portland, OR

    Kathy Sawhill, ND
    Dandelion Naturopathic PC
    Beaverton, OR

    Daniel Smith, ND
    Bear Creek Naturopathic Clinic
    Medford, OR

    Ashley Sullivan, ND
    Amenda Clinic
    Portland, OR

    Cory Tichauer, ND
    Bear Creek Clinic
    Medford, OR

    Louise Tolzman, ND
    Yew Medicine
    Portland, OR

    Eddie Vickers, ND/LAc
    An Hao Natural Health Care Clinic
    Portland, OR

    Jeanette Welker, APPRN, FNP-BC
    Oregon Optimal Health
    Eugene, OR

    John Winters, ND
    Winters Naturopathic Clinic
    LaGrande, OR

    Sharon Woodard, ND
    Good Life Medicine Center
    Portland, OR


    Robert Miller, ND
    Tree of Life Health Ministries
    Ephrata, PA

    Rhode Island

    Pamela Shervanick, DO
    Dr. Pamela Shervanick
    Barrington, RI


    Eric Potter MD
    Sanctuary Medical Care and Consulting, PLLC
    Northeast/Middle Tennessee and Southwest Virginia

    Philip Roberts MD, MS, ABAARM
    Balanced Life and Health
    Franklin, Tennessee


    Amber Brooks, DC, CACCP, BSN
    Whole Child Wellness
    Dallas, TX

    Gail Clayton, RPH
    Houston, TX

    Manisha Ghei, MD, ABIM, ABIHM, IFMCP
    Praana Integrative Medicine & Holistic Health Center
    Sugar Land, TX

    Emily Gutierrez, DNP, CPNP, APRN
    Neuronutrition Associates
    Austin, TX

    Jamie L. Guyden, MD
    Evolve Integrative Care
    Austin, TX

    Liesa Harte, MD
    Elite Care
    Austin, TX

    Chandra Higginbotham, MD
    The Women’s Health Solution
    Houston, TX

    Arland Hill, DC, MPH, DACBN
    Complete Care Wellness Center
    Webster, TX

    Jana Roso, MSN, RN, CPNP
    Neuronutrition Associates
    Austin, TX

    Tayma Shaya, MD
    Methodist Family Medicine Group
    Sugar Land, TX

    Jennifer Trejo, ND
    Abundant Life Wellness Center
    Fort Worth, TX


    Nancy Foster, APRN/PHD
    Therapeutic Lifestyle Center of Utah
    Salt Lake City, UT

    Thad Jacobs, ND/LAc
    Summit Integrative Medicine
    Salt Lake City, UT

    Thad Jacobs, ND/LAc
    Summit Integrative Medicine
    Park City, UT

    Jeff Wright, ND
    Utah Valley Health Clinic
    Provo, UT


    Bill Warnock, ND
    Champlain Center for Natural Medicine
    Shelburne, VT


    Leah Hollon, ND/MPH
    Richmond Natural Medicine
    Richmond, VA

    Lynese Lawson, DO
    Proactive Wellness Centers
    Vienna, VA

    Katie Lundberg, ND/LAc
    Cedar Natural Medicine
    Seattle, WA


    Matt Angove, ND
    Angove Family Medicine
    Chehalis, WA

    Tom Ballard, ND
    Pure Wellness Centers
    Seattle, WA

    MelindaBower, ND
    Madrone Natural Health
    Seattle, WA

    Joanne Butler, NTP/CNFC
    Abc’s of Wellness
    Richland, WA

    Ryan Campbell, ND/LAc
    Stability Spine & Wellness
    Seattle, WA

    Lynn Carlene, MA, LAc, LMFT
    Alexander Cunningham Health Services
    Port Townsend, WA

    Lynn Chadd, MSN/ARNP
    Lynn Chadd Natural Healthcare
    Peshastin, WA

    Holly Christy, ND
    Element 7 Wellness
    Bainbridge Island, WA

    Brenden Cochran, ND
    Interactive Health Clinic
    Lynnwood, WA

    Sean Congdon, ND
    Bastyr Center for Natural Health – Practioner Care
    Kenmore, WA

    Adrianne M. Cook, ND
    West Seattle Natural Medicine
    Seattle, WA

    David Deichert, ND/ARNP
    Seattle Healing Arts Center
    Seattle, WA

    Paul De Jong, ND
    Northwestern Clinic of Naturopathic Medicine
    Bellingham, WA

    Amy Derksen, ND
    Holistic Healing Arts
    Edmonds, WA

    Alyssa Dirienzo, ND
    Sage Medicine
    North Bend, WA

    Carol Doroshow, MD/FAAP
    The Kids Clinic
    Seattle, WA

    Katrina Emoto, ND
    Gig Harbor Naturopathic Medicine
    Gig Harbor, WA

    Rachel Erickson, ND
    Emerald City Naturopathic Clinic
    Seattle, WA

    Alethea Fleming, ND
    Vital Aging Clinic
    Anacortes, WA

    Mary Frazel, ND
    Natural Choices Health Clinic
    Portland, WA

    Marnie Frisch, ND
    Whole Health Naturopathy
    Olympia, WA

    Sheng Ge, DAOM, L.AC, PHD
    Wellness Life Acupuncture
    Seattle, WA

    Tim Gerstmar, ND
    Aspire Natural Health
    Redmond, WA

    Joshua Goldenberg, ND
    Bothell, WA

    Rachel Gorzawz, MD
    Paradigm Family Medicine
    Renton, WA

    Corine Harpster, ND
    Laurel Natural Medicine
    Kirkland, WA

    Jeff Harris, ND
    Naturopathic Healthcare
    Seattle, WA

    Jennifer Heiger, ND
    Bella Fiore Klinik
    Seattle, WA

    Elizabeth Hesse Sheehan, DC/QN
    Experience Health, Inc
    Woodinville, WA

    Evan Hirsch, MD/ABIHM
    Hirsch Center for Integrative Medicine
    Olympia, WA

    Larry Hooper, MD
    Molecular Testing Labs
    Vancouver, WA

    Laura James
    Red Cedar Wellness
    Bellevue, WA

    Elinor Jordan, ND
    East Olympia Healing Arts
    Olympia, WA

    Carmen Kaperick, MSW/LICSW
    Optimal Life Wellness
    Bellevue, WA

    Michael Kaplan, ND
    Tahoma Clinic North Seattle
    Seattle, WA

    Kelsey Klausmeyer, ND
    Institute of Complementary Medicine
    Seattle, WA

    Melissa Kohler, ND/LAc
    Natural Health Clinic of Olympia
    Olympia, WA

    Cynthia Kotarski, ND
    Dr. Cynthia Kotarski
    Seattle, WA

    Alex Kraft, ND/LAc
    Element 7 Wellness
    Bainbridge Island, WA

    Anastasiya Lenskiy, ND, LAc
    Bellevue Natural Medicine
    Bellevue, WA

    David Lerner, LAc/MTCM
    Hirsch Center for Integrative Medicine
    Olympia, WA

    Emily Lesnak, ND
    Bastyr Center for Natural Health
    Kenmore, WA

    Katie Lundberg, ND/LAc
    Cedar Natural Medicine
    Seattle, WA

    Lucinda Messer, ND
    Pacific Health Restoration Center
    Kirkland WA

    Wayne Moore
    Moore Chiropractic, DC
    Gig Harbor, WA

    Kelly Moyaert, ND/LMP
    Seattle Integrative Medicine
    Seattle, WA

    Susan Mueller, ND
    Vitae Natural Health
    Kenmore, WA

    Janel Newman-Kovacev, ND
    Generations Natural Health Clinic
    Covington, WA

    Tanya Paynter, ND
    Evergreen Naturopathic
    Spokane, WA

    Jane Pemberton, MD
    Seattle Healing Arts Center
    Seattle, WA

    Jena Peterson, ND
    Fullcircle Natural Medicine
    Seattle, WA

    Lara Plecher, ND
    Wenatchee, WA

    Alycia Policani, ND
    Evergreen Naturopathic
    Spokane, WA

    Andreanna Rainville, RN/CN
    Holistic Healing Arts
    Edmonds, WA

    Sarah Rattray, PhD
    Sarah Rattray Health Optimization Specialist
    Shoreline, WA

    Caroline Rose, MD
    Pacific Medical Center
    Beacon Hill, WA

    Nadya Rubinstein, ND
    Natural Reflections Healthcare Clinic
    Mountlake Terrace, WA

    Annette Sacksteder, ND/EAMP
    Institute of Complementary Medicine
    Seattle, WA

    Christine Schaffner, ND
    Bella Fiore Klinik
    Seattle, WA

    Christine Schaffner, ND
    Sophia Health Institute
    Woodinville, WA

    Sheetal Shah, ND
    Radiant Naturopathic Wellness Clinic
    Redmond, WA

    John Sherman, ND
    Tahoma Clinic
    Tukwila, WA

    Lorina Shinsato, ND
    Primavita Family Medicine
    Redmond, WA

    Elizabeth Smoots, MD/ABFM
    Elizabeth Smoots, MD, LLC
    Seattle, WA

    Steve Speidel, ND
    Poulsbo, WA

    Patricia Sylwester, MD
    Vital Rejuvenation
    Olympia, WA 98502

    Stephanie Taylor-White, ND
    Naturopathic Wellness Center
    Monroe, WA

    Elizabeth Trautman, ND/LM
    Columbia Basin Natural Family Medicine
    Moses Lake, WA

    Michelle Tureotte, ND/NMD
    Connected Wellness Center
    Redmond, WA

    Lindsay Wais, ND
    Absoute Wellness Clinic
    Issaquah, WA

    Ara Walline, ND
    Cedar Life Family Medicine
    Seattle, WA

    Lori Wieser, ND
    Natural Healing Family Medicine
    Elma, WA

    Les Witherspoon, ND
    Meditrinalia Naturopathic
    Seattle, WA

    Rhian Young, ND
    Purity Integrative Health
    Mill Creek, WA

    Alena Zweben, ND
    Market Place Naturopathic
    Seattle, WA

    Washington D.C.

    Arti Melita, ND
    Aloe Wellness
    Washington D.C.

    Rhodo Nguyen, ND
    Aloe Wellness
    Washington D.C.


    Susan Bargidreat, CN
    Holistic Health Center
    Viroqua, WI

    Sage Campione, D.O.
    Dr. Sage
    Elm Grove, WI

    Laura Davis, ND
    Integrative Family Wellness Center
    Milwaukee, WI

    Michele Nickels, ND/LAc
    IFW Center
    Brookfield, WI

    Scott Vander Wielen, DC
    Vander Wielen Health & Wellness Diagnostic Center
    Menasha, WI

    Ann Johnson, RN
    WildHeart Strong, LLC
  11. kangaSue

    kangaSue Senior Member

    Brisbane, Australia
    @DFams You might want to read this to see that it's not usually as simplistic as taking a single supplement to correct everything.

    There are many other causes of GI dysfunction than can progressively prevent you from tolerating things, many of which are auto-antibody (autoimmune) related so the tolerance issues doesn't go away until the antibodies are reduced, if you're lucky, and providing of course that they haven't already caused permanent nerve damage. Sjogren's Syndrome is one that can be slowly progressive over the course of a decade before a positive antibody result is encountered.

    Most of your abdominal symptoms could be accounted for by some form of (gastrointestinal?) vasculitis if that hasn't already been ruled out by a contrast CT scan (or ANCA antibodies in blood tests) and there are a number of other connective tissue disorders which result in GI dysfunction that can have some overlap of symptoms.

    Complex GI stuff is never straight forward I'm sorry to say and I've had the same downward spiral for many years too without the complications of having ME/CFS too but with not a lot of answers either.
    cman89, PatJ and Hip like this.

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