Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Hip, Jul 7, 2012.
Thanks a lot for the response, big help
I have been on the Jarrow brand NAG (750) for two days now and it has made a big difference in my symptoms right away. I have had the same effect that Hip talked about where it has reduced inflammation in my sinuses (I can never find anything that actually does that!) and I have a lot more energy. I think I need to take more than two a day, though. Probably more like 4-6 tabs daily spread throughout. I will see what works over the next week or so. I have lyme disease and I have read NAG is contraindicated for Lyme patients. However, I am somehow dubious of this, because I feel so good on this stuff so far. I will report back if I have symptoms though. I wonder if the Lyme depleted my own supply of NAG and that is why this supplement is helping me? I have no idea...anyway, I just wanted to report about my experience.
Great to hear N-acetylglucosamine (NAG) is working for you too, lizw118.
The development of Lyme disease has been shown to involve the pro-inflammatory cytokine IL-17, and the activation of the Th17 mode of the immune system (it is IL-17 that switches on the Th17 mode). Refs: 1, 2.
Now it just so happens that NAG inhibits the Th17 mode of the immune system, so this might explain why NAG might be helpful for Lyme. Ref: 1. Though as mentioned, NAG does also feed Borrelia bacteria.
Do let us know how you on with NAG in the future.
Update on my progress with the NAG: I was doing great with this supplement for the first four or five days but then the effects of it have started to wear off and I have some other symptoms now. I am feeling some aching in my muscles and joints and some adrenal stress (POTS and fatigue) which of course makes me totally paranoid that the NAG is exacerbating the lyme disease. However, the weird symptoms might also be due to my period, as they started right when I started menstruating. I wonder if the NAG doesn't work as well or the immune effects change during menstruation? I really hope the effectiveness that I had at first returns after my period. Nothing has stopped my sinus headaches/pressure like that supp before! I will keep you all posted on my progress! Hip, if you have any knowledge of anything like this, let me know!
The possibility that N-acetylglucosamine supplementation exacerbates Lyme disease is something to be on the lookout for. This is of interest:
"We now know that N-Acetyl Glucosamine (NAG) is a food source for the bacteria, and pathologically the Lyme bacteria is often found associated with fibrous tissues, including connective tissue, joints, tendons, and in between the purkinge of the heart fibers (a network of nerves that induce the heart to contract), where NAG is abundant." Source: here.
This does suggest that there may be a risk to supplementing with NAG in Lyme disease.
One thing you might consider trying is snorting a small amount of N-acetylglucosamine powder (taken from a capsule) into your nose, using a drinking straw or similar. I have done this myself many times before, and I find this topical application of NAG into the nose does also help reduce the sinus and nasal inflammation symptoms. The amount of NAG you snort would be something like an eighth (1/8) of a 750 mg NAG capsule (that is, about 100 mg of NAG), so this means your overall bodily dose of NAG is much smaller, and so hopefully will be less of a concern regarding the risk of feeding of Borrelia bacteria.
Incidentally, I also found that snorting 100 mg of Reishi powder (taken from an opened capsule) also seemed to have a significant benefit for my sinusitis / nasal cavity inflammation.
Awesome tip about snorting the stuff!!! I am going to try that! Generally how long does that last for you when you do it?
Yes, I read that about the lyme. Although I have also read someones blog which says that she had really excellent results using a supplement that contained NAG along with other essential sugars. It's hard to know what's what! I am going to keep trying. I think after my period is over I will be able to sort out a bit more. Thanks hip!
I am not too sure, because mostly I take NAG orally. In oral use, I would say that the effect lasts a 8 to 12 hours, though regular long term daily use of NAG seems to have a cumulative effect, in that after some weeks, it generally lowers you baseline level of sinus/nasal inflammation.
Hip, would you recommend these supplements for anyone with anxiety or only those who have had your virus, whatever?
What about magnesium citrate, kava kava, vitamin c., and other supplements listed on the internet?
With the recent findings indicating that CFS/ME sufferers could actually be in a state of permanent stress response (which could fit you GAD symptoms closely), it might be worth giving the Lightning Process a go. The process concentrates on realigning how the body reacts to the stress response and negates its affect thus relieving symptoms and in many cases leads to long term cure.
From the feedback I have received from many people trying them, these supplements do seem to work well for anyone with anxiety. Though a few people told me that they did not work for them; however, these people only tried one or two supplements detailed in this thread; if they had experimented with more supplements, they may have discovered some that were of benefit.
I think these supplements work well because they tackle anxiety at its inflammatory source. I have a theory that anxiety disorder symptoms are, in many cases, driven by brain inflammation, and so if you reduce the inflammation in your body and brain, you decrease/eliminate your anxiety symptoms. This is why addressing inflammation in the gut for example can lower anxiety symptoms (research is now showing that gut inflammation can precipitate brain inflammation).
I provide more details on my theory of the mechanism behind anxiety in this older thread:
Non-Standard Anti-Anxiety Treatment
High dose transdermal magnesium (using say Epsom salts) does have a useful anti-anxiety effect. You can certainly try other anti-anxiety supplements detailed online; I have myself tried most anti-anxiety supplements, but in this thread I only include the ones I found worked for me.
Uh-huh. And how exactly does pretending that you don't have a disease treat the many muscle, immune, and endocrine abnormalities which cannot be attributed deconditioning or "stress"?
People have tried it, as well as the "extended versions" known and CBT/GET. They don't work, and the research shows they don't work.
Another one on this site - incredible. "Phoenix Rising" should be renamed "Closed Minds" or "If you get cured from ME, you ain't never had it". Much more accurate description.
That part is fine, but it doesn't address the many pathogens that we have tested positive for. These need "killer" protocols--antibiotics, antivirals as well as immune modulators and other medical protocols.
No one is saying that that you can't be "cured" from ME, just that it needs medical rather than psychological interventions and it is more often a remission rather than a cure.
You write that people could try various combinations of the supplements that you mention. But, that could easily take painstaking years. Can't some supplements take at least a couple of weeks if not months to notice a difference? And, one doesn't know whether to wait a month or a week. And then, there are liver tests to do a couple of months after starting a new supplement, so it would be necessary to wait every two or three months between supplements. And, if there is a liver problem with a supplement you should probably wait a couple of months before trying another one to give the liver a chance to recuperate. I was trying a number of supplements upon the advice of a naturopathic doctor (I live in the United States and don't know what they're called in other countries), and they caused a problem with my liver, she was surprised and didn't know which one it was, so I had to stop all of them and start over. I was quite discouraged, and have little money (I receive all my money from the government which is not much after I pay the residence where I am staying). So, there is also a money issue for me as well.
1) What do you think about what I've written?
2) And what is ME/CFS? (I came onto this website because of this thread talking about supplements for anxiety.)
3) Does a virus always come with anxiety, or generalized anxiety disorder?
4) Can any virus cause GAD, or only a specific one? Which one? (Or, maybe none?)
5) Does fever also come with virus and/or anxiety? (I think when I am extremely anxious or angry I may get a fever of about 101.5 F; I think it may have happened twice over the last 2 or three years.)
I have had actual psychosis come with my anxiety (or general anxiety disorder). And, my psychiatrist thinks the anxiety causes the psychosis, so that I may be in a permanently psychotic state if not for the antipsychotic and antianxiety medications I am taking.
With the severity of my anxiety - the psychosis that comes with it, do you still think the supplements you mention would greatly help?
I wrote a few pages back about my experience with supplements and have been following this thread since then. I have a combination of anxiety and some sort of "mild" cfs, including neurological issues such as pins and needles (no diagnosis).
My experience of using flaxseed oil is basically the same as Hip's. Within hours it seems to calm my brain down in a way I found no other supplement do, even with a smaller dosage than the mentioned 15 ml. It's a bit funny that fish oil doesn't bring the same effect for me although it's advertised everywhere over flaxseed oil. After about a week on flaxseed oil, my acne (which is normally quite bad), started clearing away almost completely. This suggest to me that the mechanism of flaxseed oil is anti-inflammatory, which in turn means that inflammation is the primary reason for my anxiety (exactly the same conclusion as Hip has come to). I have also tested NAG and I found it's mechanism largely the same, acne cleared within a week and less anxiety. However it caused me some slight stomach discomfort so I prefer flaxseed oil for now.
The only problem with these supplements is that they don't fix the root cause of cfs/inflammation, which I believe is a combination of pathogens and faulty immune system. I am currently testing a medication known as LDN (Low-dose naltrexone), which should modulate the immune system and reduce cfs symptoms (a couple of persons have improved on it remarkably on a Finnish CFS site). So far too early to say about the effect, but it's one of the only current CFS medications that seems both cheap and efficient.
D.B, I can't answer all your questions, but I'm pretty confident that none of these 3 anti-anxiety supplements mentioned here would cause any harm to the liver, I think that's mainly an issue with certain herbs. Regarding CFS, I suggest you look it up on wikipedia.
I don't think I have chronic fatigue syndrome, rather depression, and anxiety, and psychosis when not on medication.
Indeed: it took me seven years to try out literally hundreds of different supplements, and to slowly work out which ones were most effective in reducing/eliminating my generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) and the psychosis states that I found came with GAD.
However, you have all the results of my extensive testing detailed in this thread. That saves a great deal of time, not to mention expense (assuming the supplements detailed in this thread also work for you).
Possibly some supplements might take months to have effect. But all the supplements listed in this thread start working in a timeframe of 2 to 24 hours. So the benefits are more or less immediate and, in the case of the most effective supplements listed in this thread, the benefits are clear and obvious too.
I have noticed though that although these supplements have immediate effects, after taking these supplements daily now for around 2 years, there also seems to be a cumulative, long term benefit, in that my anxiety and psychosis have now more or less disappeared.
I am not aware of any supplements that require liver monitoring and testing. It is extremely unlikely that a supplement would be allowed to go on sale if it did; anything that requires liver monitoring would be made prescription drug.
Though in the case of ME/CFS, people can be sensitive to certain supplements, so with ME/CFS you have to be on the lookout for possible negative effects. Many people with ME/CFS find alpha lipoic acid problematic, for example. But even for ME/CFS patients, such sensitivities are not really that common.
I am not sure why you were discouraged by the fact you had some problems with a supplement. Taking supplements is always a trial and error process with no guarantees, and it is quite normal to find that many supplements do not work for you; and in more rare cases, find that a supplement has some negative effects. This is all par for the course, so don't give up on your first experiment with supplements, and don't let one negative experience put you off. Look at it as an adventure in health.
I understand that financial constraints can be a problem, but there are ways to get supplements cheaper. For example, eBay is often a good source of cheap supplements, and I find that iHerb prices are some of the lowest on the Internet. Even further saving can be made if you buy a supplement in bulk powder form, rather than in tablets or capsules. A very good bulk power supplement supplier is purebulk.com. You may need to buy a cheap $10 digital scales to weight your daily doses of powdered supplements though.
I think your questions are good ones.
ME/CFS is chronic fatigue syndrome (also called myalgic encephalomyelitis).
The etiology of GAD is not well understood, and at present the evidence for a viral / microbial cause to GAD is limited. Science still has a long way to come in this respect. Studies have found cytomegalovirus to be linked to anxiety, but my hunch is that anxiety may be caused by other microbes too (most likely from the inflammation response microbe elicit). I am very interested in microbe-disease connections, and I subscribe to the view that many common diseases of currently unknown etiology (and both mental and physical diseases) will turn out to be caused in part by microbial infections.
THIS recently published large study on 3 million people is very interesting: it found that people hospitalized for infections are 62% more likely to develop a mood disorder. So this huge study strongly links infections with psychiatric symptoms.
It's possible, but | have not come across this before. I know in autism a fever actually reduces autism symptoms, which is interesting (look up: autism fever effect).
It is well established that some degree of psychosis can arrive with anxiety disorder. Along with my severe anxiety levels, I often experienced psychosis (thankfully relatively mild psychosis).
Severe anxiety I found to be sheer hell: the level of suffering involved is enormous. But equally, I found the psychosis state, even a mild one, very unpleasant and disturbing, especially when you have severe anxiety accompanying it.
If you are still suffering from anxiety and psychosis, even with the medications you are taking, I suggest that you don't stop taking these medications, but do considering trying in addition some of the anti-anxiety supplements listed on this thread, to see if you get further improvements in your symptoms.
I found that certain special supplements were both anti-anxiety and anti-psychosis in their effect, and these were very useful for me. These special supplements that reduce both my anxiety and psychosis are these (listed in approximate order of efficacy):
Anti-Anxiety Supplements/Drugs That Also Have Anti-Psychosis Effects:
N-acetyl-glucosamine 1000 mg (or more) twice daily — the best.
Amisulpride in very low doses 12.5 to 50 mg daily — also excellent. At much higher doses this drug is an antipsychotic, so it is not surprising it helps to reduce psychosis even at very low doses.
Flaxseed oil one level tablespoon (15 ml) daily (more may cause diarrhea).
Vitamin C powder 3 grams, taken three times daily — much cheaper in bulk powder.
Phosphatidylserine 400 mg once or twice daily (works best with omega 3 oil) — much cheaper if you buy in bulk powder.
Niacinamide (a form of vitamin B3) 1000 mg twice daily (though it may cause some emotional blunting, I found).
So to answer your question: do I still think these supplements will greatly help you: yes, I do. I reckon there is a very good chance they will greatly help you, especially the ones listed just above, that I found have anti-psychosis effects. I would try the N-acetyl-glucosamine first.
I got a hold of the 3 supplements NAG, Flaxseed oil and Curcumin.
Firstly, OMG! N-Acetyl Glucosamine is amazing within 2-3 hours of taking it, all of my physical symptoms of my GAD vanished like nothing else and has been sustainably for the past 10 days. I really feel like I've finally found a solution thanks to you.
Only draw back is...I think i may in some way be allergic to the NAG, on day two i jumped up to 1500mg from 750mg and that night a small itchy skin rash appeared on my right ankle, I stopped taking it for a couple days and started again on 500mg and no rash problems however i've noticed from taking it consistently for the past 4 days, to day and yesterday my heart rate has been a lot higher used to range from 52-80 around the house. Now its at 77-110 and i've never seen it get so high but was on a treadmill last night and when i checked it was up to 182 >.< scary.( I'm 24, so my max is 196 apparently) and no i don't have any allergies to anything known have done multiple tests
Do you have any suggestions who I can seek out regarding N-Acetyl Glucosamine, its just so miraculous the effect it has on all my symptoms - I dont want to stop taking it but, as you can understand the negative health side effects my bodily system is having to it is concerning.
I wish there was someone who specialised in NAG, who understood its effect on the brain and how it dissipates the GAD, any help would be awesome!
When it works, the anti-anti-anxiety efficacy of N-acetyl-glucosamine (NAG) can be amazing. As you say, the effects of NAG are very rapid: you get a distinct reduction in anxiety levels within hours of taking it.
The best thing is that the anti-anxiety effects of NAG do not wear off over time, and in fact, after around 6 months or so of taking NAG, I found that anxiety levels were reduce even more. Another major advantage of NAG it that it is not addictive or habit forming (unlike benzodiazepines), it does not display any tolerance build-up, and it does not have any withdrawal symptoms at all. You can stop NAG at any time, and you feel fine.
Your side effect symptoms of mild skin rash and increase heart rate appear to be known side effects of glucosamine (N-acetyl-glucosamine, like glucosamine sulfate, is a form of glucosamine).
Apparently if you take glucosamine with food, the side effects are reduced (although in the case of N-acetyl-glucosamine, taking with food might reduce its anti-anxiety efficacy to a degree).
People with shellfish allergies (which can cause increased heart rate, incidentally) could theoretically have problems with glucosamine supplements, as most glucosamine is shellfish-derived. There are some glucosamine sulfate brands available that are not shellfish-derived, but as far as I know, unfortunately there is no non-shellfish-derived brand of N-acetyl-glucosamine on the market.
When I first started taking N-acetyl-glucosamine, I found that doses over around 1000 mg would make me feel slightly depressed; but now I no longer get that side effect.
There does not seem to be a great deal research on N-acetyl-glucosamine, despite the fact that it seems a very promising treatment to reduce autoimmune attack in multiple sclerosis.
However, there are a number of possible mechanisms by which N-acetyl-glucosamine may reduce anxiety disorder symptoms, as follows:
• NAG reduces Th17 cell production. Since Th17 cells release the cytokine IL-17, NAG should reduce IL-17. Now IL-17 is linked to anxiety, so by lowering IL-17 levels, NAG will reduce anxiety. This is probably the main mechanism by which NAG reduces anxiety.
• On this other thread I wrote on anxiety, I hypothesize that anxiety disorder may be caused by excessive levels of glutamate in the brain, resulting from brain inflammation and microglia activation. This excessive glutamate overexcites the NMDA receptors on neurons, causing neurons to get into an overstimulated state. This overstimulated state I think then leads to anxiety disorder. Now it just so happens that glucosamine inhibits microglial activation, and this might in part explain the anti-anxiety effects of NAG (the acetyl molecule added to glucosamine to make N-acetyl-glucosamine allows NAG to cross the blood-brain barrier and enter the brain).
• Il-17 is also linked to blood-brain barrier breakdown, which can lead to brain inflammation and this may cause anxiety.
• N-acetyl-glucosamine is a component of mucin, the protective coating of the intestines and sinuses. The mucin coating fights infections, so if NAG helps produce more mucin, this may have an anti-inflammatory effect in the gut and sinuses, which will help lower overall inflammation in the body and brain, leading to less anxiety (by my hypothesis).
• NAG binds to wheat agglutinin, a lectin in the diet (such lectins can elicit an inflammatory response), so this may have an anti-inflammatory effect.
If you come across any other possible mechanisms by which NAG might reduce anxiety, please let me know.
How do you get the powder into a capsule from the scale (vitamin c. powder that I've mixed in water tasted horrible and I wonder how phosphatidylserine would taste in water)?
And, how would you measure it out on a scale?
What's your take on psychotherapy for generalized anxiety disorder or anxiety period?
Like, why take supplements the rest of your life when you could (possibly) get to the source of the anxiety and eliminate it or have it under control permanently? Or, try supplements while trying therapy until the therapy is effective, and then drop the supplements?
You can also try a Google Site Search
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