The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
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Comparing Freddd's and Rich VanK-Yasko's Protocols

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by soulfeast, Feb 25, 2012.

  1. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Any thoughts, experiences on both these protocols?

    I am interested in the types of FA and B12 and the dosing, the active b12 protocol being very high dose and the simplified low dose..

    I am also interested in how "yasko" snps could play into th active b12 protocol (do I have the name correct?)...

    Example: I am COMT++,++ and I do think that I cannot tolerate too many methyl groups. I can feel the adrenaline surgeing and staying..

    I seemed to be able to tolerate 5-10 mg of MB12 (which I am told in yasko terms is alot of MB12 for a COMT++,++) and 400 mcg of metafolin.

    I was also taking about 400mcg of folicin but took that out as per Freddd (active B12 protocol) and then uppedthe metafolin to 2400mcg a day.. adrenaline crash resulted from that.

    I am MTHFr +- for both snps and MTR++/MTRR+- for quite a few MTRR snps.. so this means I need the methyl form of FA for sure (MTHFr) and at least alot of hydroxo b12 and or methyl b12... (I think yasko recommends as much as you can get for MTR,MTRR folks but could have that wrong) and for COMT++ folks, only HB12 becasue too many methyl groups can result in hyper adrenaline states.

    I am wondering as per Freddd as I understand the protocol about yasko's dosing for metafolin.. he says half life of 3 hours and doses throughout the day.. I think up to 4 times a day because of that.. and way past yasko doses... into the 1000s of mcgs.. deplin like doses. while yasko is at 300 mcg and seems once a day is fine..

    How does methylation work here.. where is yasko (thus rich) justified and freddd justified in that cycle???

    I have questions regarding both.. why so low dose and only once a day with yasko on the metafolin?

    Why so much b12 and so little metafolin with yasko?

    IS the halflife info correct with the metafolin? and is so much needed as per freddd? Do we become methylfolate deficient? or do we use it up so fast and or inefficiently even if in the most active form?

    Same for Mb12... and what is the difference between a defiency that cannot be eventually "filled" and a dependency due to genetic flaws?

    How would folinic create a methyl trap?

    What are the benefits of folinic and issues that could come up if one does not supplement for it? What does tetrahydrofolate do in the body that the methyl form can't?

    Can freddd's protocl over drive merthylation and how would you know?

    Do active b12 and FA need to be in body at same time to make methylation work or do we dump them out rather quickly...?

    I was recenlty on 800 mcg metafolin, 400mcg per dosing.. 10 mg MB12.. 5mcg per dose.. still too much adrenaline. I was fine on 5-10 Mb12 and 400 mcg metafolin and 400mcg folinic for a long while.. no lingering adrenaline surges..

    I am now experimenting with 800mcg metafolin and Hb12.. yesterday.. no adrenaline surges.. today 400mcg metafolin and 5mg MB12.. adrenaline..


    Thank you!!!!!
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Soulsfeast,

    I started mb12 at 1mg and metafolin at 400mcg. When I started the Metafolin I was alread at high mb12 levels as it was years later. I titrated by effect. If I didn't have paradoxical folate deficiency I have no idea where I would be on the metafolin dose. I just increasing the Metafolin intil it worked and the last of the folate deficiencies went away. I'm just reaching that now, at the Deplin type doses.

    How would folinic create a methyl trap?

    It doesn't that I know of. In those who can't convert it, it can block methylfolate from usage.

    Can freddd's protocl over drive merthylation

    According to Rich it can

    and how would you know?

    Because lab tests tell me so ... However, the question comes down to does it actually cause any symptoms or any practical effect? How many months or years do they take to show up?


    IS the halflife info correct with the metafolin? and is so much needed as per freddd? Do we become methylfolate deficient? or do we use it up so fast and or inefficiently even if in the most active form?

    I'm just quoting the research on terminal clearance serum halflife as 3 hours. I think different people will come up with different titrations partially depending upon whether they can utilize veggie folate or not. It is an explanation that may or may not be correcrt that a low dose starts methylation that can't be maintained without an increased dose. Opinions may vary


    Same for Mb12... and what is the difference between a defiency that cannot be eventually "filled" and a dependency due to genetic flaws?

    I suppose you would have to find a some people who can't fulfill the deficiency. I've never seen such yet. The CNS deficiency can be filled, it just takes more. Right now the question is a recipe for wild duck soup. First we have to find the wild duck...


    What are the benefits of folinic and issues that could come up if one does not supplement for it? What does tetrahydrofolate do in the body that the methyl form can't?

    Rich came up with an alternative pathway since mine was so evidently working which was based on high levels of mb12 being needed for it.
     
  3. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Thank you, Freddd.. did you lave that list of symptoms somewhere that i can refer to (paradoxical folate deficiency)?

    My mind does not work like yours.. you remind me of my husband (computer programmer).. I cant keep up with the left brained thinking. I apologize for that.

    You (and the Japanese at least.. others?) are saying you can get so deficient that it can take years to fill this deficiency..this seems to go against even what I think I read in the book, Could it Be B12. I may totally have that wrong. This concept is stumping me. Is it a matter of whether or not supplementation is actually able to get to where it needs to go rather than the amount one may be low in B12? I get a defieicny based on a dependent need based on "flawed" mechanics or chemistry.

    How do you determine b12 deficieny symptoms from folate deficiency symptoms? Im still leaving out folinic but I remember feeling pretty good drinking a blender full of greens a day in smoothies. So maybe not a folate issue for me. But I am still holding off and trying to figure this out.

    Thank you for your help..
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Soulfeast,

    How do you determine b12 deficieny symptoms from folate deficiency symptoms?

    Long term they overlap about 100%. However, short term they don't overlap as much. The folate deficiency symptoms can start coming on in a day or 3 and go away almost as quickly. The folate symptoms are relieved by folate. The b12 deficiency symptoms take longer to appear, are much more widespread. The problem is that since they are cofactors in so many things it's the same things going wrong, but in a didferent sequence.


    You (and the Japanese at least.. others?) are saying you can get so deficient that it can take years to fill this deficiency..


    Not really. I find the assumptions behind that a little strange, like there was a b12 tank to fill up. There isn't. The book on b12 deficiency was written by somebody well steeped in traditional thinking that views the liver as some sort of b12 tank instead of the waste disposal holding area. The only way it gets from the livewr into circulation is to be excreted in the bile and reabsorbed a mcg at a time. There is no evidence any of us were ever able to find that indicates that the entero hepatic recirculation loop ever gets re-established once crashed. Instead what we have is a body compartment that drains unbound cobalamin via the kidneys. The bound cobalamins are removed via the liver much more slowly. Then there is the CNS compartment. That is where so many of us have a problem, low CSF levels of cobalamin. This requires larger doses to penetrate the CNS and some folks lose it from the CSF almost as fast as it enters. The old idea that a cyanocbl or hydroxycbl injection can last 1-3 months comes from that 1% per day draining of the serum level via the liver and that the 2/3 of symptoms that are not affected by cyanocbl and hydroxycbl don't count. Mb12 affects those other 2/3 of symptoms and those start coming back after 3 days. Therefore the model generated mentally is very different if one is basing it on mb12 than on cyanocbl. It isn't that cyanocbl or hycbl lasts 10-30 times longer than mb12, it's that it never relieved those other symptoms in the first place. When you look ONLY at MCV < 100 and serum cobalamin > 300 once a month can work. When you look at neurology it may take several doses a day. So the viewpoint of what is happening is affected by the form of cobalalmin used for the research. In Japan that has been mb12 for 20-30 years. In the USA it has been most cyanocbl, the "official" b12 by name, with focus mostly on MCV. As that has been outgrown, much conflict has arisen. I build numeric models of things as a programmer. The models vary a great deal based on assumptions used. To model the effects on the CSF I would need at least limited data based on multiple CSF draws per day to see how it varies over short term and longer term of two groups; a healthy control group with "normal" CSF cobalamin levels and the "low" CSF cobalamin group which included CSF/FMS and many other neurological diseases.


    you remind me of my husband (computer programmer).. I cant keep up with the left brained thinking. I apologize for that.

    I appologize for getting far affield in that way. You understand I can't help it. It's just the way my mind works. My mind just chugs along finding patterns and fitting them into models. I see people's behavior patterns as well which can make for difficult social relationships because I ask people questions that they never expected, about their assumptions underlying their actions. I'm also intensely empathic with people around me.
     

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