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CNS and XMRV

Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by usedtobeperkytina, Dec 5, 2009.

  1. usedtobeperkytina

    usedtobeperkytina Senior Member

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    Now

    Now that is what I am thinking. Something biologically is causing higher depression in us, rather than the situations and attitudes alone causing the depression. I think depression may just be one of the symptoms, or components or stages.

    Tina
  2. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    ""XMRV is a retrovirus and nothing to do with mental illness"

    WOW! you obviously haven't a faintest clue. Wow.


    You haven't a faintest about NeuroAids (neurological dysfunction caused by HIV and present in up to a half of HIV positive individuals in children their symptoms are those of autism). Dementia, depression.

    I suppose you also haven't the faintest of numerous case studies of viral and bacterial encephalopathy ending in autism?

    You also then must have missed mountains of studies pointing to infectious etiology in schizophrenia?

    How about depression and inflammation with mechanisms of why and how chronic/raised inflammation causes or raises threshold for depression being established beyond much doubt. I guess you never heard of those either?

    And you obviously never came across any of the many studies indicating infectious etiology in bipolar disorder?

    Read up on Alzeimer's and herpesvirus links? No, I thought not.


    To state with certainty that mental illness has nothing to do with (retro)viruses oh well


    http://autismcalciumchannelopathy.com/Infectious_Agents.html
    http://autismcalciumchannelopathy.com/HIV_and_Autism.html
  3. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    Depression is no doubt part of CFS and many other conditions/diseases. I wonder what mechanisms a retrovirus like XMRV could employ in causing the type of depression that is mediated biologically..

    For starters chronic immune activation will see chronic raised expression of inteferon gamma, which will in turn lead to chronic elevation of something called IDO (full name indoleomine 2,3-dioxygenase).

    This IDO, both acting as an antiviral (in acute infections), but also it seems a proviral enzyme (at least in the case of HIV, which is inhibited by IDO inhibitors) also plays a MAJOR role in tryptophan pathway! Accelerated degradation of tryptophan will result on not enough of it being left for SEROTONIN production (because serotonin is sythesised from tryptophan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tryptophan_metabolism.png

    Less serotonin means you get the point.


    The other mechanism of inflammation/infection and depression involves overactivated chemokine pathways. No links handy and no time to elaborate but try pubmed for studies on elderly and raised susceptibility to depression and how this is influenced biologically by raised inflammation (as result of old age, and imo accumulated infections and toxins). If you find that one there will be links to more research on raised cytokines (inflammatory molecules) and depression.


    Those two mechanisms possibly linked not sure if chemokine/elderly researchers looked into IDO and tryptophan pathway as well not time to look into it but if anyone here does please post ☺


    There could of course be other mechanisms (possibly directly involving methylation or post-translational modification of serotonin etc genes)
  4. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    Ups, just saw that Dan posted loads on cytokines and depression. Sorry Dan, completely missed that page of the thread when first looked :)

    ps do look into IDO. I belong to a xmrv-autism forum and there was a longish discussion there recently on IDO inhibition etc, as relates to HIV and as (could) related to XMRV... email me privately if interested....
  5. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member

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    Natasa,

    The discussion of depression in CFS and ME has been muddled, poisoned even by the psychologists for their own gain and to the detriment of patients. This has made people very wary of any discussion.

    The claim of the psychologisers is that people with CFS have depression even WITHOUT the symptoms of anxiety, dysthmia and lack of affect which are the cardinal symptoms of depression. Their claim is that the actual symptoms of CFS are part of a hidden depression.

    They also go further and claim that pain, fatigue, immune problems are a sickness BEHAVIOUR, either unconscious or worse, conscious, which sufferers adopt to ease some other problems in their lives.

    None of this is said in any way which will help patients or relieve their problems. It is used to deny benefits, treatment and compassion. All too often family accepts that CFS is a life style choice and remove their support and good will as well.

    The psychologists also make much of studies which they claim show that "most" people with CFS have depression, again as a way to deny treatment and the actual experience of having CFS. These studies invariably use questionnaires where fatigue is classed as a psychological symptom.

    Better studies using controls with MS and rheumatoid arthritis have shown that depression is no more common in CFS than any other long term illness.

    You make much of the ignorance of people with CFS but how much do you know of the history of ME and CFS? We are still at the stage of prejudice autism was at when it was thought to be caused by refrigerator mothers.

    Mithriel
  6. Advocate

    Advocate Senior Member

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    Hi Mithriel,

    Your clear statement on depression in CFS is one of the best I have ever read.
  7. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    Mithriel,

    apologies for the tone of my post, I do realise it was not called for at all (reason being so tired and fed up of hearing of mental illness and behavioural symptoms as not linked to anything biomedical or God forbid caused by anything environmental...).

    I am acutely aware of politics and private interests meddling in chronic illnesses, and of CFS having been dismissed as a real illness by doctors, and especially by psychologists who btw have no place in autism and have done unspeakable damages to how it is viewed and (not) treated, let alone CFS. Sorry once again if I offended anyone :(
  8. Dan

    Dan

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    Natasa, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thorough list of things that cause depression in infectious or autoimmune inflammation! Way more thorough than mine. I too am aware of the tendency and reasons for avoiding the discussion. I don't think enough people are aware of the hard evidence science has for infectious/autoimmune disease as a cause for severe depression. For gosh sake it's a known fact that depression is the first symptom many of us have at the onset of the flu! Within the last few decades research has elucided why this happens. It can be replicated in the clinical setting with synthetic cytokines. This evidence, combined with great body of evidence pointing to an infectious/inflammatory cause or component to ME, CFS, Fibromyalgia and related conditions will end that fear soon enough.
  9. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member

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    No problem Natasa :Retro smile:

    This illness alone is hard plus the politics and muddying psychologisers are so influential it's a wonder we stay as calm as we do.

    Mithriel
  10. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    Some very good info on IDO and serotonin pathways in chronic viral infections, with therapy and dosage recommendations on this webpage:


    Tryptophan catabolism Interferon and IDO induction, niacinamide supplementation
    Introduction
    A major cause of problems, such as mood disorders, immunodeficiency, auto-immune disease, fatigue, inflammation (etc.) seen in chronic stress conditions, including post-traumatic stress, Lyme disease, Hepatitis C, HIV, fibromyalgia, and a known adverse effect of therapeutic interferons such as pegylated alpha-interferon, is the catabolism or degradation (breakdown) of the essential amino acid tryptophan. In these conditions, white blood cells release compounds that induce (stimulate) the enzyme-complex indole
    dioxygenase (IDO) in tissues..... http://tinyurl.com/yb8dky4

    btw is niacinaminde used in CFS with any success? any changes in mood or fatigue symptoms?
  11. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    Curcumin for depression in chronic inflammatory conditions

    Dan and others, just wanted to add that curcumin is a known IDO inhibitor.

    On the other hand a search on curcumin potential for depression returns lots of hits on pubmed, turns out it maintains serotonin levels in acute or chronic stress... No one looked into IDO inhibition and tryptophan pathway protection in those studies but I suspect those mechanisms may be involved.

    Just wondering if curcumin is a widely used supplement in CFS? It also acts as anti(retro)viral and inhibits many key inflammatory molecules, including ifg and nfkb. Oral availability is not that great though, but there is this new Enhansa product that is supposedly better absorbed, there is lots of buzz around it in autism community fwiw...

    other known natural IDO inhibitors, at least in vitro, are rosmarinic acid and propolis
  12. Dan

    Dan

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    Thanks Natasa. I don't know if it's widely used by CFS patients. I see that curcumin is being combined with piperine in some commercial products now, so it would be easier to try.
  13. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Hi Natasa,

    Thanks for posting. I used to cook a lot of Indian food and felt better when I was doing that. I believe that the turmeric I was using was helping.

    Maxine

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