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Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

Beyond

Juice Me Up, Scotty!!!
Messages
1,122
Location
Murcia, Spain
I was curious as to what other people are trying now. It seems like the hype of CB is dying down (although i have had some slight benefit from CB) and i was wondering if someone could lead me to a different thread where people are getting help. I thank you in advance. :)

Well I still want to drink some fresh human milk that according to other Adreno thread contains a host of beneficial strains. Not even kidding here, but how do you get that? o_O
 
Messages
53
I've been thinking about human milk as a way to get good bacteria, but the links posted, the Mother's Milk Coop has milk that is sterile which means all the good bacteria have been killed.
Another big issue is that newborns stomach is not acidic because acid production hasn't started yet. That's why they can ingest beneficial bacteria from the mother's milk and have their gut colonized. We adults, on the other hand, have plenty of acid in our stomach so even if you could drink fresh human milk (or even better human colostrum), it would have very little effect because the stomach would destroy all the bacteria.
The only thing that I believe could be effective would be a human milk enema.
 

Avengers26

Senior Member
Messages
158
I have been taking 1/2 cap every day for about 10 days now & tolerating it well so far. Any updates from esteemed members who have been taking it for weeks or months?
 

Basilico

Florida
Messages
948
I was curious as to what other people are trying now. It seems like the hype of CB is dying down (although i have had some slight benefit from CB) and i was wondering if someone could lead me to a different thread where people are getting help. I thank you in advance. :)

Someone just sent me a pm asking about my experience thus far with Mutaflor, which I thought this might be of interest, so I'm posting my response for anyone who is interested. I know I explained about Mutaflor in an earlier post, but for those who missed it, Mutaflor is produced in Germany and is essentially the "E. Coli" version of CB.

The story behind it is pretty interesting. During WWI, a Dr. Nissile was studying a group of German soldiers who had been deployed in the Balkans where the water was contaminated with a high pathogen load. As a result, all but ONE soldier got very sick from water borne pathogens. That one guy became a fascination for Nissile, who hypothesized that this guy had a super strain in his gut flora that protected him, so Nissile started studying his feces until he found this particular strain. He isolated it, sanitized it, and used it to supplement other people. Mutaflor has thus been on the market for a vey long time and since it was taken from the human gut, seems to be able to colonize (though this may require long term supplementation).

My husband is now taking Mutaflor for a 2nd time starting about a month ago (We both have CFS symptoms). He has IBS-D and it definitely improved his GI function. It was more noticeable at the beginning, but even now, there is overall lasting improvement. He also has a lot of weird symptoms that come and go. For example, about a year and a half ago he started getting severe panic attacks, which don't seem to have any obvious triggers (based on their occurrence and frequency, we think it's highly unlikely they have a psychological cause and his recent hypothesis is that they are related to either blood calcium levels or due to the fact he has a mutation that causes his MAO-A system to not break down adrenaline properly).

This is the 2nd time he's tried taking Mutaflor, and it's the 2nd time there's a noticeable decrease in his panic attacks - they've almost completely disappeared. We're not certain that this is related to the Mutaflor since they've reduced in the past without intervention. Additionally, he developed a low blood pressure out of the blue which spontaneously improved both times after starting the Mutaflor. Again, this could be coincidence, we can't be sure. Even though he is by no means cured, and still has fatigue/overexertion issues, in the past month he's been doing overall much better. We don't have proof, but it's our working hypothesis that the Mutaflor's contribution to reducing his panic attacks and normalizing his BP could be related to the increased production of vitamin K2 by the gut bacteria (one of many things this strain of E. Coli is known for), which then stabilizes his free floating calcium in the blood.

We've become disheartened with so many of the vitamins/supplements we've tried in the past few years, but this seems to be one of the few things that appears to be having a positive effect - he's even thinking of doing a longer maintenance supplementation (at a lower dose) of Mutaflor, which doesn't seem to have been tried yet by anyone and could be the key to insuring that there is a lasting colonization.

We also have a brand new bottle of CB that he also is planning to give a 2nd chance. Not sure when he plans to start that as it seems there is no end of supplements we are always in the process of testing out. At the moment, he's been reading about the work of Dr. Jay Goldstein and we are testing out some of the medications he's tried for CFS patients (I just started Tagamet, which is from his list).
 

Basilico

Florida
Messages
948
Tell me about the brown algae...what does it do? Where do you get it? I do not have CFS but suffer from chronic constiptation that I am trying to resolve.

I have a long history of IBS-C (that comes and goes with no explanation). I tried every OTC laxative and home remedy, and have only ever found a few things to work for me. One thing that worked like a charm was the Hydro-C powder that I ordered from the Gut Sense website. It's basically a very gentle form of vitamin C that doesn't cause stomach irritation. I tried duplicating the effect with Ascorbic acid (thinking it would be a cheaper approach) but no other Vitamin C form ever worked like that stuff. It really is magic.

When I first started Mutaflor, my BM became like clockwork after the first day. It subsequently got screwed up again when I moved abroad for a few months, but now that I'm back in the U.S. I'm more or less normal again.

Everyone responds differently, so these might not necessarily work for you, but they made a noticeable improvement for me.

Also, my father in law has had a long history of constipation. He doesn't have CFS, though he does have some very weird symptoms that come and go. This summer, we got him to start taking CB and not only did his BM become regular for the first time in years, but his mood has drastically improved. We've not seen him in such a long-lasting good mood in years, and we don't know what else besides the CB would be causing it. If you haven't tried it, it might be worthwhile since it's much cheaper than Mutaflor.
 
Messages
53
A few more details in addition to what my wife already said:

- when I tried CB during the summer I was not tolerating it well, after a week or so of diarrhea and gas I stopped it. Mutaflor by comparison would only give me gas and diarrhea for the first couple of days. Must be said that during the summer I got a bad flu and had to take antibiotics. I suspect this messed up my already unbalancd gut flora, so I'm planning to give the CB another try in around a month, after I have completed 2 months of Mutaflor

- from what I have been reading, E. Coli Nissle (Mutaflor) does colonize the human intestine, but not forever. They were talking about detecting the ECN in the feces for 6-9 months after discontinuation. Apparently even if it is a human bacteria and it's supposed to be in the intestine, the resident gut flora and possibly the immune system end up attacking it, because they just attack anything that is not part of the resident flora, good or bad. It seems to be a classic situation where the body tries to maintain what it perceives to be homeostasis even when this homeostasis is really bad.
My plan is to try to take Mutaflor beyond the 2 months that is the standard treatment protocol, maybe for 6 months, maybe more. I also started fermenting coconut water with the ECN because Mutaflor is so expensive. The idea is to take a maintenance lower dose of ECN (right now I'm taking 4 caps of Mutaflor per day) so that MAYBE the gut environment will get used to it in the long term and allow it to stay.
Mutaflor has done nothing for my fatigue, but as my wife mentioned I feel it has enough beneficial effects that I feel it's worth staying on it.
The main problem with fermenting my own Mutaflor is that I'm worried it won't survive the stomach environment (Mutaflor caps are enteric coated), so I have to figure that out.

We'll update if anything worth mentioning happens with this experiment
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,300
Location
Ashland, Oregon
I just started reading this thread, and have only read the first 80 posts or so. I'm quite intrigued by Clostridium Butyricum and other probiotics, as I've been adding a variety of fermented foods to my diet recently, and have been feeling better as a result. I just found the following snippet online at this link -- ADD THESE FIBER-RICH FOODS TO YOUR DIET TO FIGHT INFLAMMATION. -- (Good article by the way.)

""ENCOURAGE YOUR GUT BACTERIA TO MAKE BUTYRATE

There are two ways to get more of the fatty acid butyrate into your diet. The first way is to directly consume it. The name butyrate comes from the Greek word “butter.” Butyrate is found in butter and other forms of diary—especially goat, sheep, and buffalo milk.

While you can also find butyrate supplements online, eating butyrate (or taking it as a supplement) is not an effective way to increase levels of butyrate in the gut.

This is because the fermentation of fiber takes place in the colon, where you will naturally find the most butyrate. Butyrate is an energy source for cells in the colon—and the best way for butyrate to reach the colon is through fermentation in the colon.""​

A couple of things come to mind... I recently read an account by David Perlmutter where he had remarkable treatment success from implanting 6 capsules of a probiotic directly into the colon of a 13-year old boy with Tourette's Syndrome. His symptoms were markedly improved by the following day.

Question: Could it be effective to implant Clostridium Butyricum directly into the colon?

Question: Since I now ferment food and juices on a regular basis, could it be effective to put some Clostridium Butyricum directly into whatever I'm fermenting, and potentially significantly increase its potency?​

Thanks for any replies. And thanks for all the participants on this thread.

Best, Wayne
 
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ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
could it be effective to put some Clostridium Butyricum directly into whatever I'm fermenting, and potentially significantly increase its potency?
I don't tolerate the cornstarch in the Miyarasin (sp?), so have been fermenting it into yogurt. I can't say anything about the potency, but I'm tolerating it, and will increase the dosage next batch (from 1 tab/litre).

Can't see why you couldn't use it per enema. I've done this w/ other probiotics.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
It's possible to take rectally, but since it is easy to take orally more than I can tolerate, why would I? I don't need higher potency.
 

JPV

ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs
Messages
858
I'm guessing the fermentation would substantially increase the dose?
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,300
Location
Ashland, Oregon
@JPVI am currently taking 400mg of magnesium citrate per day, tons of omega-3 fish oil, eating prunes, etc. I've had this problem for a long, long time and its always been a struggle. I appreciate your advice, will take it under advisement, and will continue to read the other numerous posts on this forum related to constipation. In the meantime, I don't want my constipation issues to derail this thread. As it is, the thread already had to be split in two, once lol - I don't want to be responsible for needing a third :D

Hi @trails,

I recently ran across information which pointed to my vagus nerve as being responsible for much of my digestive and GI problems, including constipation. The following article is the best I've run across which explains much of this connection. Perhaps some of the exercises in this article will help you out in some manner..

I think this topic relates to this thread, as progress on many symptoms Closridium Butyricum is able to ameliorate can be circumvented by a poorly functioning vagus nerve. I once heard it referred to as the main communication line between the brain and the gut. My own vagus nerve problems were significantly improved by a procedure called Atlas Profilax, which repositions the uppermost cervical vertebra. I feel it relieved some significant compression on my VN.

Best, Wayne
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Here's a snippet from the article...

Your gastrointestinal tract actually has its very own “brain” called the enteric nervous system. This system is responsible for the information to instruct your gut to move food along your intestines. The enteric system is controlled by your Vagus nerve which is a nerve that comes down from your brainstem. When the communication is weakened between your brain, vagus nerve, and your enteric system, all types of gastrointestinal disorders can arise including constipation.

If a poorly functioning brain does not stimulate the vagus nerve, the result is reduced activation of the gastrointestinal tract. ...... There are several exercises that you can do to rehabilitate the vagus nerve. As your stimulate weak neurons they develop more proteins to become stronger. This is called the development of positive plasticity and can be done with any part of the brain.​

The exercises are then listed...

@Lou
 
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