Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[Sidereal]

Every time you take an effective probiotic or prebiotic, all the hot spots of infection in your body will light up like a Christmas tree. I get bladder, throat, sinuses. Sometimes it will be in areas you didn't know you had an infection in like the mesenteric lymph nodes.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Every time you take an effective probiotic or prebiotic, all the hot spots of infection in your body will light up like a Christmas tree. I get bladder, throat, sinuses. Sometimes it will be in areas you didn't know you had an infection in like the mesenteric lymph nodes.

This has certainly been my experience. Sinuses....throat...lymph nodes.
I get mouth ulcers erupting too, but usually only the first few times I use something new.

 

[Sidereal]

This has certainly been my experience. Sinuses....throat...lymph nodes.
I get mouth ulcers erupting too, but usually only the first few times I use something new.

I forgot to mention mouth ulcers. I also get herpes reactivations when taking stuff that's particularly effective for overall ME.

 

[cigana]

Every time you take an effective probiotic or prebiotic, all the hot spots of infection in your body will light up like a Christmas tree. I get bladder, throat, sinuses. Sometimes it will be in areas you didn't know you had an infection in like the mesenteric lymph nodes.

Interesting...how do you know it is being effective?

 

[Sidereal]

Interesting...how do you know it is being effective?

Because I can do more stuff with less PEM, less OI, slower fatiguability of muscles, other symptoms improving like water and electrolyte balance etc.

 

[Asklipia]

do you have any recommendation for it to go away faster? bains derivatifs?

I try mechanical solutions first.
- heat on the place that hurts, this makes the lymph more fluid and it can be evacuated more easily;
- bains derivatifs will rush the lymph to the gut and evacuate it;
- shaking the limb, this is what people are trying to achieve unconsciously with restless leg syndrome. Flick out the arms and wrists, same for legs, kick in the air. 100 times leisurely, in a relaxed way. Do it on both sides;
- tapping like in EFT. Notice the thoughts associated with it, you are getting rid of bad memories!
- try to forget it, it does not last, and think that the poison is leaving you!

 

[Asklipia]

A new study dated April 2015! Sent by @Gemma
A breakthrough in probiotics: Clostridium butyricum regulates gut homeostasis and anti-inflammatory response in inflammatory bowel disease.
Clostridium butyricum as a probiotic induces interleukin-10-producing macrophages in inflamed mucosa via the Toll-like receptor 2/myeloid differentiation primary response gene 88 pathway to prevent acute experimental colitis. In this review, we focus on the new approaches for the role of specific bacterial strains in immunological responses, as well as the potential of bacterial therapy for IBD treatments.

 

[alicec]

I started the Miyarisan again 5 days ago, 1 per day. This time I didn't notice the almost immediate sense of well-being I experienced last time but did quickly notice slight gut discomfort and later, loose bms (something which has disappeared with dietary changes and small amounts concentrated prebiotics).

On day 2 the mild gut symptoms continued then I started to get fatigued with some flu-like aching so didn't take one the next day. That day I had clear gut discomfort and apparent SBO displacement. This is powerful stuff!

Also 2 days in a row I had a very strange sudden sharp pain in the base of the big toe and a return of paralysis symptoms in that part of the foot - something I have not had for some time (have never had the bad pain with the paralysis, just discomfort). Fortunately the worst of the pain quickly subsided but the area around the toe remains sore. (The right foot has been a source of mild neurological symptoms for a long time so maybe the source of this is starting to be attacked?)

Held off for two days and intend to take one tonight and will probably stay at one every 2 or 3 days for a while.

I am still amazed that 6 months ago I could take 2 or 3 AOR 3 daily with no apparent effect. Although I did say in a previous post that maybe something in the mixture is cancelling itself out I really meant this as a theoretical possibility; it seems much more likely that some other gut population has been stimulated that enables the C. butyricum to exert an effect now.

This is reassuring since it means that the prebiotic strategies are certainly doing something. But as @Gondwanaland has experienced, I won't assume that probiotics which previously didn't cause problems will now be so benign.

I should add that all of this is against what has become a constant background of lymphatic activation mainly in the upper body, but especially in the head - the Christmas tree lights that @Sidereal describes are mainly in my brain and I hate to think what is being harboured there! This has been going on for well over a month, causing me to back off on supplementary pre and probiotics. However it is not settling down.

Cognitive dysfunction which was always among my worst symptoms and hasn't shown much change with anything is now somewhat worse but there is no going back in the strategy. I figure I just have to live with it for a while and hope that eventually the seemingly newly empowered immune response will deal with the source of the brain dysfunction. I'm going back to rotation of small amounts of supplementary prebiotics and will continue with the miyarisan.

 

[Asklipia]

@alicec
How to shake off lymphatic pains in the knees or feet :
This has to be done standing, feet slightly apart and toes pointing out, with arms crossed over your chest. If you cannot keep your balance, forget about the arms part and hold on to something. The arms crossed allow for some extra deep gut squeezing.
Then bring a heel towards the opposite hip as much as you can easily, then straighten the leg with a gentle jerking motion towards the side. Change leg. Count to make 100 times total.
In a relaxed fashion. Eventually the knee and the ankle will loosen up, lymph will flow further. This ensures that it won't stagnate where it is and damage whatever is there.
The hips are open, ensuring a good lymphatic flow. Do not kick straight ahead but on the side, towards 2 and 10 o'clock.
Good luck!

 

[alicec]

@alicec
How to shake off lymphatic pains in the knees or feet :
This has to be done standing, feet slightly apart and toes pointing out, with arms crossed over your chest. If you cannot keep your balance, forget about the arms part and hold on to something. The arms crossed allow for some extra deep gut squeezing.
Then bring a heel towards the opposite hip as much as you can easily, then straighten the leg with a gentle jerking motion towards the side. Change leg. Count to make 100 times total.
In a relaxed fashion. Eventually the knee and the ankle will loosen up, lymph will flow further. This ensures that it won't stagnate where it is and damage whatever is there.
The hips are open, ensuring a good lymphatic flow. Do not kick straight ahead but on the side, towards 2 and 10 o'clock.
Good luck!

Thanks very much, will give it a go.

I'm having acupuncture tomorrow. Last time around it greatly helped loosen lymphatic congestion in the head so I hope it will be as successful this time around

 

[anne_likes_red]

@alicec I find alternating hot and cold packs to the top of the neck (at the base of the skull) helpful for clearing lymph congestion in the head.
Hope the acupuncture is successful tomorrow!

 

[cigana]

Because I can do more stuff with less PEM, less OI, slower fatiguability of muscles, other symptoms improving like water and electrolyte balance etc.

That is fantastic Do your infections still light up like christmas trees or did that subside? And if it subsided, did the time period correlate with your ME symptoms improving?

 

[cigana]

What other prebiotics would people recommend besides the Resistant Starch?

 

[cigana]

If anyone could summarise the RS threads I would be very grateful! The main one is now at 3284 replies....

 

[Sidereal]

That is fantastic Do your infections still light up like christmas trees or did that subside? And if it subsided, did the time period correlate with your ME symptoms improving?

My big areas of dysbiosis are kidneys and bladder so that's where I tend to get the Christmas lights flashing. It still happens if I take stuff I can't tolerate; if it didn't I'd probably no longer be sick. It's highly individualised though. Some here feel it in their head. Some get gut symptoms. Etc.

Over time if I kept taking the same prebiotic these reactions subsided. For instance, with resistant starch I used to get flu symptoms with just 1/4 teaspoon; now I can shovel in a few heaped teaspoons without noticing anything negative. (Not that you should take big doses of anything; they are probably harmful.) I don't take RS anymore. It served its purpose to get me from A to B over a year ago (when I literally could not do anything but lie down and sit up in 5-10 minute stretches a few times a day, couldn't eat food without mast cell reactions etc.) but it no longer produces any obvious benefits and in fact higher doses make me worse.

On the other hand, some prebiotics are so powerfully immunostimulatory that no matter how small a dose you take it produces intolerable side effects. I'm talking even a fraction of a capsule producing intolerable pain etc. In that case, I would back off on the supplement and move onto something else and then revisit the first one months later.

As long as you still have ME you're likely to be reactive to prebiotic stuff, the question is just which substrate will produce reactions. Some people have no major reactions to RS but then they try something else like C butyricum and they get flu-like symptoms, herpes reactivations etc. Try experimenting on healthy family or friends and you'll see what I mean. They can take pretty much whatever without any obvious negative reactions whereas we're sitting here splitting C butyricum tabs into 10 pieces etc. and still getting hit with symptoms. This is telling us something very important about ME, I think.

There is no clear pathway out of this ME thing. There is no protocol per se. Nobody can give you a summary "take x at dose y and you'll notice symptom z getting better". This knowledge simply does not exist.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Ever since Adreno said he reacted badly to flax seeds (which I can't tolerate either) I have been thinking about gut flora, vitamin K and testosterone.

I am especially deficient in vit K because I took warfarin from 2011-2013, and not coincidentally this was when my health went seriously downhill.

Some pieces of the puzzle started popping into my email box such as this:
http://paleoforwomen.com/how-to-know-if-you-have-low-testosterone/ and links therein esp. this one
http://paleoforwomen.com/flax-marij...n-sources-you-might-not-know-youre-consuming/

Plus my blood results wouldn't make sense to me because they show normal S-DHEA and low testosterone... until I found this:
http://www.spectracell.com/media/uploaded/3/0e2064997_392testosteronewheel.pdf
and then it is important to take this into consideration:
http://suppversity.blogspot.com.br/2010/07/chelated-copper-forgotten-lutenizing.html

This would also explain why so many people get adverse reactions to vit D. Every supplement you take from the Testosterone wheel above, if not taken with vitamin K will only worsen vit K deficiency.

Unfortunately to get vitamin K back into our bodies has been provento be too painful

Thanks to the food pyramid and the use of refined vegetable oils there are huge amounts of people deficient in vit K.

Is Ray Peat the only one who knows what he's talking about out there? When I first read his material I thought this man is a lunatic. Now I think he is a visionary, with all the poisonous serotonin hypothesis that fits so well +/+ MAO-Aers like me.

I am curious to try his method of transdermal vitamin K oil, I wonder if it is less painful... But that is a subject for the vit K thread, where there also are reports of its bad side effects

I am convinced K is a big part of the (gut) puzzle.

 

[Sidereal]

All roads lead to vitamin K.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I wonder if @aaron_c has any input here.

 

[aaron_c]

Wow yall. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to read through all 18 pages just now...

But I actually started on C butyricum a little while ago...about the time Adreno did, seemingly. As per the directions of the doctor who suggested it, I take mine in a retention enema with my cooked-and-cooled potato starch in order to avoid digestive upset. It definitely works to combat what I will out of habit call ammonia symptoms: Uncomfortable sick feeling, like my lymph is blocked, brain fog, confusion, et.

As far as I can tell, the effects last for a little while after I use it. Possibly days.

I do hope that eventually I won't have to take it via enema, which is...more effort that I would like to spend every day.

 

[mariovitali]

I've been following the thread closely and i have also been researching about our condition. I decided to write here because i found some things that involve Butyrate, Choline Deficiency, TMAO (Trimethylamine-N-Oxide) and Unfolded Protein Response (my thread).

As some of you know, i've been using specialized software to analyze our symptoms and get a better understanding on what is going on.


One of the analysis created the following output :



The more lift a row has, the better the rule. Each rule shows associations between Topics. Interestingly, at the top of the rules (in terms of Lift) there were many entries for phosphatidylcholine. So i decided to research on Choline more.

I first looked at my SNPs in genes involved with Choline absorption :


PEMT

rs7946 (C;T)
rs4244593 (A;A)

MTHFD1
rs2236225 (T;T)
rs2236224(T;T)

CHDH
rs9001(A;C)

So Choline absorption is problematic for me and with it the production of TMAO. I then found this :

Endoplasmic reticulum stress has been found to be associated with obesity. Therefore, agents that reduce or prevent ER stress may be used to treat diseases associated with obesity including peripheral insulin resistance, hypergylcemia, and type 2 diabetes. Two compounds which have been shown to reduce ER stress and to reduce blood glucose levels include 4-phenyl butyric acid (PBA), tauroursodeoxycholic acid (TUDCA), and trimethylamine N-oxide (TMAO). Other compounds useful in reducing ER stress are chemical chaperones such as trimethylamine N-oxide and glycerol. The present invention provides methods of treating a subject suffering from obesity, hyperglycemia, type 2 diabetes, or insulin resistance using ER stress reducers such as PBA, TUDCA, and TMAO. Methods of screening for ER stress reducers by identifying agents that reduce levels of ER stress markers in ER stressed cells are also provided. These agents may find use in methods and pharmaceutical compositions for treating obesity-associated diseases.

Phosphatidylcholine (PC) is a product of Choline. I looked at a possible connection of Butyrate and PC and it seems that Butyrate lowers PC ( and as a consequence TMAO).


TMAO, apart being a good guy is also a nasty one because it promotes Atherogenesis. However what i wanted to point out here is that in the event that you have Problematic SNPs in Choline absorption then it is very possible that you also have very low Choline levels and this could lead to ER Stress and NAFLD (Non-alcoholic liver disease).

So i would advise you to have a look at Choline SNPs and if you have problems to either supplement with Choline or to eat Choline-rich foods in moderation (if you don't do so already).

EDIT : It appears that high levels of TMAO is not good for kidney function although this requires further investigation (TMAO may be increased because of impaired kidney function and not vice-versa). Therefore, make sure you do not have impaired kidney function (low eGFR). Again, moderation is a key goal when it comes to boosting TMAO levels.

Useful Links

Choline Deficiency in Genetic Genie

http://geneticgenie.org/blog/2013/1...chronic-illness-the-hunt-for-the-missing-egg/

TMAO and intestinal microbiome. Certain strands create TMAO while others not :

Intestinal Microbiota Composition Modulates Choline Bioavailability from Diet and Accumulation of the Proatherogenic Metabolite Trimethylamine-N-Oxide

Choline and TMAO

http://chriskresser.com/choline-and-tmao-eggs-still-dont-cause-heart-disease/