Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[adreno]

http://www.webmd.com/diet/insoluble-soluble-fiber

A bit of an oversimplification. Most items have both, but may be predominantly soluble or insoluble.

 

[Scarecrow]

@Scarecrow can you eat all that and not have inflammation?

Well, not all in one go.

As far as my gut goes, the solubles are mostly good for me. I make my own instant 'oatmeal' of ground almonds, ground linseeds (i.e. flax), oatbran and also whey protein. I got the idea from primal blueprint but my version is less paleo.

In the insolubles, wheat's my main bloater .... and fruit... and too many carbs generally. My M.E started immediately after IBS but most of my gut symptoms calmed down years ago when I went lowish carb.

In the rest of the body, I wish I knew what was causing inflammation. I'm in my forties and have all of a sudden developed arthritis. Doctor says it's osteo; I think not.

 

[Scarecrow]

A bit of an oversimplification. Most items have both, but may be predominantly soluble or insoluble.

No doubt! I think they've tried to reflect that it's not one or the other by including celery and cucumber in both lists.

It's a useful quick and dirty starting point, I think.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I'm in my forties and have all of a sudden developed arthritis.

Me too. I recommend start slow with Miyarisan. If I were wise enough I would have satarted with 1/2 tablet 1x weekly.

 

[adreno]

Maybe I should try oatmeal again - it's been a while!

 

[Scarecrow]

Maybe I should try oatmeal again - it's been a while!

Careful there! Slow and steady.

 

[ahmo]

Is there any contraindication for *normal* people using Miyarasin? I'm preparing to ferment it in yogurt. Is it OK for my husband and cat? Or are these organisms that we should be cautious about introducing? thx.

oh, I see carrots have both soluble and insoluble fibre. Thank you @Sasha. This is something I have aplenty in my diet!

 

[Lou]

Plenty of info on butyrate here:
http://thehomeschoolingdoctor.com/?s=butyrate

Gondwanaland, in part seven, did you happen to notice what was said about the paradoxical nature of butyrate?

Paraphrasing, it says, "low concentrations of butyrate may promote intestinal barrier function whereas excessive amounts may induce epithelial cell apoptosis and disrupt intestinal barrier."

Maybe this has been talked about before, if so, I missed it, but I've taken fairly large doses of RS for over a year now, and am quickly up to 8-10 tabs of Miyarisan and now worry a little that instead of patching things I may be unintentionally harming myself.

You, or anyone here, have any thoughts? I wonder how we tell what's too much before the harm is done.

Btw, thanks to adreno for starting this thread.

 

[JPV]

Maybe this has been talked about before, if so, I missed it, but I've taken fairly large doses of RS for over a year now, and am quickly up to 8-10 tabs of Miyarisan and now worry a little that instead of patching things I may be unintentionally harming myself.

You, or anyone here, have any thoughts? I wonder how we tell what's too much before the harm is done.

Well, I guess the ultimate determining factor is whether you're feeling better or not?

Clostridium butyricum is purported to kill off pathogens such as Candida albicans and H. Pylori. This might be something to keep in mind if having negative reactions. Unfortunately, like so many things things that we supplement with, it's often hard to determine when a negative effect is harmful and when it's part of a "die-off" process or "healing crisis".

As for doing any damage, the literature seems to indicate the CBM 588 strain used in Miyarisan dose not take permanent residence in the gut, so I'm guessing any potential negative effects should be reversed shortly after cessation...

Clostridium butyricum (Wikipedia)

CBM 588 was approved for clinical use in humans by the Japanese Ministry of Health and Welfare in 1970. The standard preparation as marketed by Miyarisan Pharmaceutical (Tokyo, Japan) consists of white, marked tablets each containing 0.35 x 106 colony forming units (CFU) of C. butyricum MIYAIRI 588 (as active agent). CBM 588 does not establish permanently in the gut, in common with other orally administered probiotic bacteria. CBM 588 for clinical use is produced by submerged anaerobic fermentation followed by centrifugation, drying, blending and packaging.

 

[adreno]

You, or anyone here, have any thoughts? I wonder how we tell what's too much before the harm is done.

I doubt your doing harm. As long as you are only using the "precursors" of butyrate, the production is rate limited. But if you ingest butyrate supplements directly, it just might be too much of a good thing.

You might want to try reducing your supplemental RS, and simply get it from foods. This will make your butyrate production more "natural". For the record, I don't supplement any RS at all.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I wonder how we tell what's too much before the harm is done.

My recommendation is don't rush into it. Don't be eager to see results in days. Work on week-month scale.

 

[Sidereal]

I think it takes years to modify the microbiome although I saw some results within weeks. Pushing too fast at times has led to disasters for me.

 

[Asklipia]

I think it takes years to modify the microbiome although I saw some results within weeks. Pushing too fast at times has led to disasters for me.

We have been working on our guts seriously since I think January-February 2014 with different pre and probiotics, adding Miyarisan in September 2014 and Sanum therapy end of February 2015.
We still are improving, that is we are able to do things we could do 30 years ago, and more easily I would say.
We have tremendous energy now.
Still some issues (eczema patch, transient pain on lymphatic paths from time to time) but they are getting better.
I suppose we were in reasonably good shape already in January 2014. Which might explain the stellar results.
But one and a half year later we still have improvements, so this is a long road and it gets more pleasant the more you go on.
Some improvements take a very long time because the body has its own priorities.
Some improvements are immediate, and this does not mean that if you do not see immediate improvements anymore nothing is happening.

Definitely it takes time. At least one and a half years for us.

 

[Sidereal]

We have been working on our guts seriously since I think January-February 2014 with different pre and probiotics, adding Miyarisan in September 2014 and Sanum therapy end of February 2015.
We still are improving, that is we are able to do things we could do 30 years ago, and more easily I would say.
We have tremendous energy now.
Still some issues (eczema patch, transient pain on lymphatic paths from time to time) but they are getting better.
I suppose we were in reasonably good shape already in January 2014. Which might explain the stellar results.
But one and a half year later we still have improvements, so this is a long road and it gets more pleasant the more you go on.
Some improvements take a very long time because the body has its own priorities.
Some improvements are immediate, and this does not mean that if you do not see immediate improvements anymore nothing is happening.

Definitely it takes time. At least one and a half years for us.

Totally agree Asklipia and judging from what you have posted on the K2 MK-4 and riboflavin threads, you and your husband were in pretty good shape before you even started the resistant starch and C. butyricum.

Many here are in dire condition so the side effects can initially be quite severe with the immune system waking up from the immunosenescence of long-term severe ME. It was quite shocking to my system, to say the least.

I think people who are in decent shape will see results much more quickly and with fewer side effects whereas those in housebound/bedridden situations could be in for a rough ride.

When I started resistant starch in February or March 2014, I couldn't even take the trash out or answer the door without PEM so the improvements have been tremendous when you keep that in mind but the side effects at times have been extreme.

 

[Asklipia]

judging from what you have posted on the K2 MK-4 and riboflavin threads, you and your husband were in pretty good shape before you even started the resistant starch and C. butyricum.

Yes, both K2 and riboflavin both helped tremendously. I did not realize at the time that this was due to our having been severely deficient in both for a long time. Because of a gut problem we never knew we had!
I am sure now taking the Miyarisan and other probiotics together with more fibers is providing us with enough K2 and riboflavin from the inside, and who knows what else we had been lacking!
I am sure on the way we did ourselves harm with supplements that created more needs and unnatural imbalances.

Good luck to all!

 

[adreno]

Since I'm on doxy right now, I'm considering giving the dose a huge bump. I mean, the die-off can't get any worse anyway, right?

 

[Scarecrow]

Since I'm on doxy right now, I'm considering giving the dose a huge bump. I mean, the die-off can't get any worse anyway, right?

Good luck with that. Hope it doesn't kill too many of the good guys. And at least you're in a much better state of knowledge to work on your gut microbes once you've finished the antibiotics.

 

[Sidereal]

Since I'm on doxy right now, I'm considering giving the dose a huge bump. I mean, the die-off can't get any worse anyway, right?

I've recently been considering triple therapy for ulcer and I was wondering about the exact same thing. C butyricum should help prevent negative effects of abx according to the published literature but if one tab a day is poorly tolerated perhaps the bigger dose needed to see those benefits might not be tolerated either. A bit of a Catch 22. I suppose all you can do is try.

 

[Sidereal]

I am sure on the way we did ourselves harm with supplements that created more needs and unnatural imbalances.

It seems to me that every time I supplement some vitamin I end up causing multiple other deficiencies as a result of kickstarting reactions that have been slow for a long time and depleting various cofactors. It feels a bit like whack-a-mole. Even RS initially caused severe B12 and choline deficiencies. Still, supplementing prebiotics to get the bacteria to produce vitamins for you seems like a far more sensible way of dealing with deficiencies than taking vitamin pills.

 

[adreno]

I've recently been considering triple therapy for ulcer and I was wondering about the exact same thing. C butyricum should help prevent negative effects of abx according to the published literature but if one tab a day is poorly tolerated perhaps the bigger dose needed to see those benefits might not be tolerated either. A bit of a Catch 22. I suppose all you can do is try.

Yeah, there might be some immune activation independent of die-off. On the other hand, TLR4 antagonism should help.

BTW, I had the tick lab tested, and it was positive for rickettsia, but negative for borrelia, erlichia and babesia. Doxy should take care of the rickettsia as well.