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Clenbuterol

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Alesh, Dec 2, 2009.

  1. Alesh

    Alesh Senior Member

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    I tried clenbuterol more or less heuristically and I was surprised how effective it was against my brainfog. I knew that there were beta adrenergic receptors in brain and that clenbuterol crosses the blood brain barrier but only recently did I realize how much has recently been done with adrenergic agonists applied to neuroimmune disorders. Just try to "google scholar" clenbuterol and neuroprotection.
  2. Alesh

    Alesh Senior Member

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    I am not sure if I posted to the correct section but as antidepressants are known to be immune modulators so is clenbuterol.
  3. lebowski

    lebowski

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    suppression

    this looks rather an immune suppression .. maybe different in humans ..




    ABSTRACT: The effect of the beta-adrenergic
    agonist clenbuterol on immune function was examined
    in sheep. Twenty ewe lambs were housed indoors,
    with food and water available on an ad libitum basis,
    and immunized against somatostatin (SRIF) using a
    SRIF-ovalbumin conjugate. Ten of the lambs were also
    treated with clenbuterol (400 mg/kg) each day; 10
    controls were not treated. After 5 wk of treatment
    (with booster injections of the SRIF conjugate each
    fortnight), the lambs were bled and then slaughtered
    for carcass composition. The lambs that received
    immunization alone produced significant antibody
    titers against SRIF, whereas 9 of the 10 clenbuteroltreated
    lambs produced no significant, specific antibody
    response. There was no effect of clenbuterol
    treatment on liver, thymus, spleen, kidney, kidney fat,
    or biceps femoris weight compared with those lambs
    that were only immunized. These results indicate that
    treatment with clenbuterol may inhibit humoral
    antibody response to infection
  4. Alesh

    Alesh Senior Member

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  5. lebowski

    lebowski

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    was a very long and interesting paper , i couldn't read it all .. what i understood from it is , adrenergic agonists work as neuroprotectants but at the same time they slow the inflammation and immunity .. i dont think i want to mess with the natural inflammation arrangements of the body at this point .. but as i said i couldn't spend the necessary time on the paper, if i got the immunosuppressant action wrong on the paper pls correct me ..
  6. Alesh

    Alesh Senior Member

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    Thank you for the interest. Neither I have the necessary energy and time to explore the whole article. But it gave me some hints why clenbuterol might have helped me somewhat. In fact there are three drugs I would say they really helped me during the 11 years of my ME/CFS. Citalopram, oxandrolone, clenbuterol. Actually perhaps also modafinil. But it is so difficult to judge since the symptoms of my ME/CFS also change without any apparent reason so it is not so easy to establish causative effect of any drug. But there is one factor that is not even correlated with my ME/CFS symptoms and it is the so called "emotional stress". Many sufferers of ME/CFS report about how "emotional stress" worsens their condition. Perhaps I am an exception but my ME/CFS has been completely indifferent of any stressful emotional situation I have so far, during the last 11 years, experienced. :)
  7. lebowski

    lebowski

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    "Perhaps I am an exception but my ME/CFS has been completely indifferent of any stressful emotional situation I have so far, during the last 11 years, experienced. "

    same here , but only if i support the adrenals with prescription cortisons ..

    my best med i could ever found for the symptoms is dyprimadole .. i tried it for hyper-coagulation and to my surprise it lifted the 25% of the fatigue immediately with just the quarter dose and another suprise it is more effective than xanax on anxiety for me .. unfortunately i had a hemorrhoidal bleeding and cant use it these days .. than later i found out that it is a general action antiviral .. well if u r one of that " lets give it a try " type : ) .. some ppl use it for a life time so it is not a med with high side effect profile and still works with its quarter dose of its anti-platelet action .. pls dont take it as a medical advise , i m just some lay guy searching for solutions ..
  8. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    London
    Emotional stress

    I also have found it difficult to see a relationship between any emotional stress and my symptoms.

    We've been discussing this a bit on the '20 years up and down' thread.

    Jenny
  9. Alesh

    Alesh Senior Member

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    Thank you for your reply. I think dipyridamole is really interesting. I read it inhibits pro-inflammatory cytokines, which is why I think citalopram helps me, besides being neurotrophic. In the past I also had to some extent good experience with an enzyme cocktail that improved the rheological properties of blood. I think my CFS could have some vascular component.
  10. lebowski

    lebowski

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    hi alesh ,

    i read on another thread that u used high dose anabolics , body building right : ) ? .. i did that high dose anabolic thing too and i still regret it , i think it was an important reason of my crash , i also used direct testosterone .. if this cfs has anything to do with xmrv , loading the body with androgens could be one of the worst things one can do to himself , actually u were talkin about the good effects of anabolics there but u cant know what happens on long term , in the short term it of course gives very high energy

    one more thing about dipyr. it stops shortness of breath symptom immediately ..
  11. Alesh

    Alesh Senior Member

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    Hi lebowski,

    I didn't do bodybuilding before I fell ill. I feel that my CFS must be some kind of encephalopathy. Yes, I had severe nausea for about a year, I had some twitches in muscles all day for few years, I had some pain in various muscles and joints but it is all negligible in comparison to what happens with my brain. I even don't read anything which doesn't connect brain involvement and CFS. I have read about neuroprotective effects of erythropoietin but this protein is not active orally and I would probably not be able to inject it myself so I tried another option via anabolic steroids. And that's how I discovered what is the real world of bodybuilding. :) But in fact I was quite emaciated before I started taking anabolic steroids, I weighted 75kg. Then, almost suddenly, I had 110kg, so the muscle, blood volume etc. could help me fight with the neuroinfection if I have any.
  12. Alesh

    Alesh Senior Member

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    And to the dipyridamole: I remember that when all the hell begun I had swollen lymph nodes on the neck. I remember having seen a tree with many bulges on its trunk, something like this:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Burl_Washinton.jpg

    I thought that this tree must have something like a mono-I was told I have just a prolonged course of EBV mononucleosis. :D

    After may be one year all my lymph nodes shrunk to normal size but on the left side they remained bigger even after 10 years, so I speculate that the tissue in the lymph nodes got necrotized or gawd knows what and they oppress the blood vessels carrying oxygen to brain and taking waste metabolites out of it. But it is most probably a nonsense. Anyway I would try to have MRI of neck.
  13. lebowski

    lebowski

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    "Yes, I had severe nausea for about a year, I had some twitches in muscles all day for few years, I had some pain in various muscles and joints but it is all negligible in comparison to what happens with my brain. I even don't read anything which doesn't connect brain involvement and CFS."

    alesh were u checked for lyme ?? it looks like it .. actually the whole cfs thing looks like lyme so everyone must be checked for that ..
  14. Alesh

    Alesh Senior Member

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    Hi lebowski,

    you made a good point. Few days before the onset of the "eternal flu" I had a tick bite. About seven years ago they tested my cerebrospinal fluid and blood for the antibodies to borrelia burgdorferi sensu lato by Western Blotting. Both were negative. About two years ago they tested my cerebrospinal fluid and blood for the same antibodies with the same method but in a different laboratory. Both were positive. The same neurologist performed also a SPECT imaging of my brain. It revealed widespread diffuse hypoperfusion. He had my cerebrospinal fluid inspected by scanning electron microscope. It revealed "viruses of the herpesviridae family". So my neurologist concluded I have a postprocessual damage of brain tissue after neuroborreliosis together with another brain infection. But as I revealed later he doesn't believe my problems are caused by Lyme disease. He, like no other serious scientist, believes in the quackery of "chronic Lyme disease and its treatment by long term administration of antibiotics". From his part It was only a formal statement so that I could get medical care paid by the insurance company. And he doesn't even know that my previous tests were negative. (And of course he knows the presence of antibodies in cerebrospinal fluid or blood is diagnostically unimportant. I had ticks bites between the two tests.)
  15. lebowski

    lebowski

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    hi alesh ,

    " He, like no other serious scientist, believes in the quackery of "chronic Lyme disease and its treatment by long term administration of antibiotics". "

    i hope u didnt get this info from the quackwatch site , i must tell u quackwatch site is scientifically unproven .. and ilads researchers and drs r serious scientists .. and chronic lyme is probably easier to cure than the hiv like thing .. and man if cold taste of tears was here he would ban u from this site because ur fatigue is probably related to another illness .. just check the persistence of lyme disease just from scientific papers , u ll not believe the purely scientific info u ll find .. they infect dogs with borrelia then treat it with what the idsa recommends , the dog has no symptoms left , then they give the dog anti tnfa something or cortisons i cant remember the details exactly now but something supress the immunity and there comes active borreliosis again without any other tick bite .. of course they couldnt try this at humans .. there r hundreds of scientific reports supporting chronic lyme disease .. antibodies can stay positive but there r other tests to confirm ur situation if u even do not believe in chronic lyme can even be seronegative ..
    and u know they ( the idsa ppl) explain the good effect of antibiotics as being an anti inflammatory support but this dont explain the herxheimer effect one gets with the abx .. on the other hand lyme may get chronic because of xmrv or something like it damaging the immune systems and u can have both and get cured once u can cure xmrv ( just the opposite is also possible )
    and yesterday i read somewhere where cheney said chronic lyme is indistingushable from cfs , if not ilads scientists u can trust Cheney i think ..

    here is a link to start with if u like to
    http://www.lymebook.com/chronic-lyme-disease-science
  16. Alesh

    Alesh Senior Member

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    Hi lebowski,

    thank you for the commentary, it sparked again my interest in Lyme disease. But I don't think they missed living Borrelia when they examined my cerebrospinal fluid and blood with SEM. I am proud of being the member of the skeptical movement and I am proud of not succumbing to any of the quackeries, like homeopathy or psychoanalysis, even if I was so bad how only someone with CFS can imagine. But of course there is a difference between, say, homeopathy, which is absurd from the beginning to the end, and a human pathogen with considerable pathognomonic potential.

    I think it is practically impossible that all patients now diagnosed as having CFS will turn out to have the same illness.

    Sometimes I imagine what would happen if all the patients that have suffered from serious CFS for many years or decades now get well: that would be an "Invincible Army".
  17. lebowski

    lebowski

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    "Sometimes I imagine what would happen if all the patients that have suffered from serious CFS for many years or decades now get well: that would be an "Invincible Army". "

    it is a bit strange that i thought the same thing some time ago ..

    homeopathy .. what if there is a placebo controlled double blinded study proving its effectiveness alesh : ) .. i had heard something like this once but never digged it .. and after i read that thought experiment quantum thing , i m never sure of anything i know anymore .. today i read a paper from Columbia university supporting the chronic lyme concept i wish i d bookmarked it to send u but i didnt .. at least they r not quacks u know .. if i were u and had the positive test i d search lyme at everywhere i find it on web .. because u may not ever get well if that link is correct without specific treatment .. or at least if u can find the necessary abx u can make a trial to look if u ll have the herxheimer ..
  18. lebowski

    lebowski

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    u should check this

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18817547?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

    2008 Sep 25;5:40.

    Persisting atypical and cystic forms of Borrelia burgdorferi and local inflammation in Lyme neuroborreliosis.
    Miklossy J, Kasas S, Zurn AD, McCall S, Yu S, McGeer PL.

    Kinsmen Laboratory of Neurological Research, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, BC, Canada. judithmiklossy@bluewin.ch

    BACKGROUND: The long latent stage seen in syphilis, followed by chronic central nervous system infection and inflammation, can be explained by the persistence of atypical cystic and granular forms of Treponema pallidum. We investigated whether a similar situation may occur in Lyme neuroborreliosis. METHOD: Atypical forms of Borrelia burgdorferi spirochetes were induced exposing cultures of Borrelia burgdorferi (strains B31 and ADB1) to such unfavorable conditions as osmotic and heat shock, and exposure to the binding agents Thioflavin S and Congo red. We also analyzed whether these forms may be induced in vitro, following infection of primary chicken and rat neurons, as well as rat and human astrocytes. We further analyzed whether atypical forms similar to those induced in vitro may also occur in vivo, in brains of three patients with Lyme neuroborreliosis. We used immunohistochemical methods to detect evidence of neuroinflammation in the form of reactive microglia and astrocytes. RESULTS: Under these conditions we observed atypical cystic, rolled and granular forms of these spirochetes. We characterized these abnormal forms by histochemical, immunohistochemical, dark field and atomic force microscopy (AFM) methods. The atypical and cystic forms found in the brains of three patients with neuropathologically confirmed Lyme neuroborreliosis were identical to those induced in vitro. We also observed nuclear fragmentation of the infected astrocytes using the TUNEL method. Abundant HLA-DR positive microglia and GFAP positive reactive astrocytes were present in the cerebral cortex. CONCLUSION: The results indicate that atypical extra- and intracellular pleomorphic and cystic forms of Borrelia burgdorferi and local neuroinflammation occur in the brain in chronic Lyme neuroborreliosis. The persistence of these more resistant spirochete forms, and their intracellular location in neurons and glial cells, may explain the long latent stage and persistence of Borrelia infection. The results also suggest that Borrelia burgdorferi may induce cellular dysfunction and apoptosis. The detection and recognition of atypical, cystic and granular forms in infected tissues is essential for the diagnosis and the treatment as they can occur in the absence of the typical spiral Borrelia form.

    PMID: 18817547 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    PMCID: PMC2564911


    either these scientists r quacks or , u may need treatment .. just a suggestion , i hope it helps ..
  19. Alesh

    Alesh Senior Member

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    Lebowski,

    thank you very much for the abstract. I hope I will be able to look more closely at the fulltext of this article tomorrow. One of the interesting things is that they speak in the abstract about the astroglial cells and I believe these are the cells in brain at which the receptors for clenbuterol are.

    On the other hand when I was ill with CFS for about 2 years I was given quite large doses of doxycycline for the whole month without any effect.
  20. perovyscus

    perovyscus

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    I believe symptomatic relief is key in CFS patients, through any means necessary. This certainly is a helpful option few people know about.

    I realize I'm being UScentric, but clenbuterol is not available in the US except on the black market.

    Clenbuterol is a good symptomatic aid to raise blood pressure. It raises cortisol as well. The cognition is due to the direct increase of norepinephrine (which promotes AVP release = memory) in the brain. Continuous use will cause a shift to a proviral state, however. Assuming... that's what CFS is.

    The pills I had were good. Unfortunately, I now have to use black market product, and it feels completely awful. The dosage is extremely difficult to calibrate. For those wishing to try, I recommend 20 MICROgrams in the morning.

    It's marketed as a weight loss aid, but supraphysiological doses are needed. The body compensates by producing less T3, so if you are cachexic, it shouldn't hurt too much.

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