The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Choline causes brainfog

Discussion in 'Cognition' started by edro, Sep 18, 2014.

  1. edro

    edro

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    Hello,

    I'm curious to hear your story if you've had a bad reaction to Choline, or if you know how it relates to methylation.

    On two separate occasions I experimented with CDP Choline and Acetyl L-carnitine (which I understand contributes to Choline somehow). After a couple days both of these supplements caused me serious anxiety and brain fog. So much so that I could barely function. I stopped them immediately. I found this very odd because most people have the exact opposite experience. Most people take Choline to help with cognition. I've read other stories similar to mine. We seem to be in the minority, but I've never found a reason why.

    Then I learned I am homozygous for both MTHFR C667T and CBS A360A.

    Reading the wikipedia article on Choline I discovered that it is as a methyl donor. Choline plays a role in the methylation cycle and interacts with both MTHF and SAMe. There is more at play here than I understand, but I’m willing to wager my Choline reactions have something to do with my MTHFR or CBS mutations.

    Does this sound plausible?
    Could bad choline reactions be due to unaddressed methylation problems?
    Anyone else had similar reactions?
    Can anybody with more biochemistry knowledge offer some input on this?

    Any info is much appreciated.
     
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  2. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Acetylcholine can have a negative effect on cognition, as it works somewhat in opposition to dopamine and norepinephrine. Your reaction is not uncommon.
     
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  3. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

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    I have had a similar experience with both supplements. Coline brings on terrible anxiety and raciness, Acetyl-L-Carnitine brings on more overt FEAR & DREAD.

    I don't have detailed biochemistry knowledge... I just concluded they are not for me at the time.
     
  4. Athene

    Athene ihateticks.me

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    Do you have any BHMT polymorphisms? I think that is the one which makes most direct use of choline.
     
  5. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

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    Yes, I get notoriously worsening depression and brain fog with too much choline or even lower doses of ALCAR. But not anxiety. I don't have any problems with TMG however even in gigantic doses. I think there's multiple reasons you can have problems with choline, for me I assume it's neurotransmitter imbalance.
     
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  6. melamine

    melamine Senior Member

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    This is just what I've been trying to figure out. I tend to get bad energy reactions to supplements that are contrary to expected effects, or side effects that are not listed. A few days ago I began trying liposomal B vitamins and C and felt noticeably worse, even at less than 1/2 dose at a time. They have a phos'choline carrier. I thought the Bs were the problem at first but am not so sure now and am questioning the carrier too. Still evaluating.
    I do not feel good using ALCAR, although I don't recall feeling as bad as with certain other things.
    When I tried SAM-e a few years ago I felt noticeably depressed. I have not been tested but based on history and other tests, guessing I am a poor methylator.
     
  7. Peyt

    Peyt Senior Member

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    Choline helps if you have excess dopamine (Ex: people with COMT++)
    If not you probably won't need it. For me, it's a great supplement. If I don't take it, I get angry very easy and agitated. But then again, I have COMT++ which means I have excess Dopamine and Norepenephrine and Choline helps balance it out.... But people with MTFHR are the opposite so I am not surprised you are reacting poorly to it.....
     
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  8. melamine

    melamine Senior Member

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    Sounds like some people in my family! :DMaybe I'm a mixed bag. After reading up more on methylation, I realize the quantity of methylfolate in my B 25s might have been a problem. I took a break from everything, being more careful now, and also added in some lithium orotate, which has corresponded with feeling mildly better, more relaxed, whether it's coincidence or not.
     
  9. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    @Peyt, my husband has both of those COMT++ mutations, too. But he has MTHFR A1298C +/+ as well! Do you suppose choline would help? Sometimes his brain energy gets so low, he just turns into a bump on a log.
     
  10. Peyt

    Peyt Senior Member

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    Does he have PEMT?
     
  11. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    He's got +/- for rs4244593 and rs4646406
    -/- for rs7946
     
  12. Peyt

    Peyt Senior Member

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    He could benefit from it. But the trick is to figure out which form of Choline works best for him without side effects.
    There are several types such as Choline bitartrate, Lecithin, Alpha GPC, CDP-Choline and so on....
     
  13. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Thanks, Peyt. We have choline bitartrate on hand, but since it works for me, it probably won't for him. ;)
     
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  14. Peyt

    Peyt Senior Member

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    after running my genetic genome on nutrahacker i learned there is another gene besides PEMT that effects Choline and that is MTHFD1
    So mutation of MTHFD1 requires Choline while mutation of PEMT requires Phosphatidylcholine
    Unfortunately, I am +/- on both!
     
  15. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Well, crappola, I've got MTHFD1L +/+ on two snps. And PEMT +/+. No wonder the choline bitartrate is helping me. I've got someone encouraging me to try lecithin, as well, because:
    "You may be better to take more lecithin, as this gives you the phosphatidylcholine (PC)which you need for your membranes and which can be broken down to choline, and you can make acetylcholine from that. If you try the other way around to make PC, your PEMT alleles make it hard to make it from PEA, and also you need 3xSAMe to make it. You can then synthesize up from choline, but I don't think that this is as effective."
     
  16. Peyt

    Peyt Senior Member

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    I don't have MTHFD1L, I have the MTHFD1 which is rs2236225 and that's the one that nutrahacker says requires Choline for me.... The thing about nutrahacker reports is that it only shows the +/+ and +/- snps so it's not on my report to know if MTHFD1L also relates to Choline.

    BTW, I just noticed BHMT snp which I also have requires phosphatidylcholine... so 2 of my snps require phosphatidylcholine and one requires Choline...

    I really like this nutrahacker report.... worth the $37 I paid... wish I knew about this before spending $1100 on Dr. Yasko's tests!
     
  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I am GG and DH is AA for that. Which is the bad one? :nervous:
     
  18. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    so choline and lecithin do not raise acetylcholine levels or help with ADD or brain fog? I read that choline can cause athereosclerosis and heart disease?
     
  19. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Update: choline bitartrate is no longer helping. Groggy-foggy brain has descended upon me. I'm now trying Citicoline and lecithin. I duly noted this:

    However, I have multiple +/+ snps indicating a need for choline (PEMT, BHMT, MTHFD1L). I also ran across this on another thread:

    So now my question is about NAT2. I've just run my NAT2 snps through an analysis tool which told me I'm a "slow acetylator". And I found this a while ago: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24221535
    “We identified an 'ultra-slow' acetylator phenotype based on combined *6A/*6A, *6A/*7B and *7B/*7B genotypes containing the homozygous minor alleles of C282T (rs1041983, *6A, *7B) and G590A (rs1799930, *6A).”

    I have both of those homozygous snps. Would this hinder my ability to make acetylcholine?

    I've asked this question on 3 different threads. So far, no answers.
     
  20. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    AA. But it's still pretty common - about 20% of Europeans are AA. And there's no risk associated with a man having it, just a risk of neural tube defects in a fetus if the mother has it.

    Supplementing folate or eating a good amount of vegetables should compensate for it, just like it does for the common MTHFR mutations.
     
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