1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
The Pathway to Prevention (P2P) for ME/CFS: A Dangerous Process
Gabby Klein gives an overview of the P2P process, shedding light on the pitfalls with advice as to what we can do in protest ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Cheney: "There’s a reason to be methylation blocked..."

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dannybex, Jul 2, 2013.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes:
    579
    Seattle
    I agree with parts of both of your posts Mij and Jarod.

    Methylation is important, but it isn't the only detoxification pathway, and perhaps that's why some haven't found benefit from the protocol, because they're only addressing one part? Just a thought...

    And personally, I would re-arrange the order on Jarod's list. I'm definitely not a scientist, and can barely think straight lately, but I just have a feeling the heavy metals/environmental toxins/chemical exposures, etc pile up first, overloading our liver, our HPA axis, our thyroids (?) and in general messing up our immune function, gut function and genetic expression -- so that when we need to deal with a virus, our immune system doesn't react appropriately, and so we stay sick.

    Maybe there are genetic factors that make us less able to detoxify particular toxins, but even Rich, in the last couple of years was saying that if one gets worse on the SMP or even Yasko, that heavy metals or mold, etc., may need to be addressed first.

    ???

    Thanks for your replies.
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,574
    Likes:
    954
    Salt Lake City
    There is a reason behind having blocked methylation; starvation for the nutritional items, ie l-methylfolate and MeCbl in the presence of which blocked methylation is impossible. When methylation is partially blocked, cell formation, immune function and all those things stop working. The more subtle problem is how to detect and correct CNS only blocked methylation. Once methylation is blocked quantity and severity of secondary symptoms cascade and then eventually go to methyltrap and partial ATP block. An inability to sufficiently utilize veggie folates is all it takes to start the whole cascade. How it differentiates then depends on all the other things. That is probably equally true for each and every one of the Deadlock Quartet. Lack of MeCbl also leads to partial methylation block. Lack of AdoCbl leads to a lack of ATP which is a partner in many methylation transaction. Same with L-carnitine fumarate who's lack appears to be an inability to synthesize it from amino acids. Many symptoms have been backtracked into childhood that are early symptoms of the beginning of these deficiencies, and they seem pretty "normal" childhood symptoms; bloody noses, strep throats, pneumonias, night terrors, sleep paralysis, abnormal dreaming, "growing pains", muscle pains, spasms, general poor health and I very strongly suspect, PANDAS in those with a very specific deficiency profile. The causes of the deficiencies can vary tremendously. All sorts of illnesses or even physical traumas appears able to tip a person into deficiency who is on the edge and would remain okay as long as not challenged.
     
  3. denlander

    denlander

    Messages:
    28
    Likes:
    97
    Both Paul Cheney and the late Rich Van Konynberg are friends of mine. Because they had a difference of opinion as to where the metabolic anomaly occurred, does not make either one right or wrong. We are unfortunately seeking answers, the exact source of the etiology of the disease is still obscure. I believe for what it is worth that the methylation cycle and its affect on the immune system is a problem in the disease.
    Thus I do not have reason to chastise either Paul or Rich, indeed Congratulate both on their work showing this is a physical and not an imagined condition.
     
  4. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

    Messages:
    382
    Likes:
    249
    I wonder if it is possible to verify what Cheney claimed in his Fairfax lecture about the main problem being with SOD(superoxide dismutase). As I understand it SOD has a lot more to do with energy than GSH, so wouldn't it make sense that with a disease like "chronic fatigue syndrome" that SOD should be looked into? Cheney said it could be measured and that artesunate increased SOD in PWME by 50%. How come no one has tried to test this? Moreover I wonder why Cheney is no longer trying to spread this idea. He didn't even mention the idea of oxygen toxicity or this thing with SOD in his recent talk. Too bad because this work really resonated with me.
     
  5. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

    Messages:
    571
    Likes:
    584
    dannybex
    The GST gene mutations, and other mutations in the livers phase 1 and phase 2 detoxification
    http://www.gdx.net/core/sample-reports/Detoxi-Genomics-Sample-Report.pdf
    should also be taken into account according to Swedish researchers that have studied these genes. Rich has written about this too in some messages. Maybe someone can help finding them. If we can´t conjugate/bind glutathione with toxins properly due to lack of glutathione-s-transferase enzymes we will still have problem with detoxification , even if the level of glutathione is normal.

    Best regards,
    Helen
     
    alex3619, dannybex and LaurieL like this.
  6. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes:
    579
    Seattle
    Here's two studies that suggest a genetic link to the inability to detoxify mercury:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22765978

    "
    These findings are the first to demonstrate genetic susceptibility to the adverse neurobehavioral effects of Hg exposure in children."
    and...

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16343843

    "
    These exploratory findings suggest that the CPOX4 polymorphism may affect susceptibility for specific neurobehavioral functions associated with mercury exposure in human subjects."
     
    ukxmrv and Helen like this.
  7. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    210
    I noticed the following from that blogger's first part of her blogpost about visiting Dr. Cheney.

    She says that she actually tape-recorded her appointment with him and then transcribed it afterwards, so it was not just her recollection of what he said (the part about the methylation block's being there for a reason in CFS/ME, and that maybe it's best for the patient not to remove the block), it's presumably exactly what he said.

    However, she explains that he often argues several sides of an issue and talks in hypotheticals, so maybe he was partially doing that regarding the view he proposed that the methylation block should not be removed for people with CFS/ME because the block provides them with more glutathione than lifting it does:

    "My short-term memory being totally shot at the time makes it very difficult to follow Dr. Cheney, who is as verbose as he is intelligent. Making the transcript showed me that part of the reason I leave his office confused is that he will frequently argue both sides of an issue, or even four or five sides of an issue, in a Well, it may be this caused by this and if it was we could do this for it; but on the other hand, it could be that this is happening, and if that were the case, you might see this or that, and given that, it might seem obvious that this would be the solution, but you don’t want to do that, because we’ve found that if you do, it hurts instead of helps, but if the first part doesn’t hold, we would have to go in this direction, as long as these conditions are met, which we don’t know if they are yet. It is wonderful that he has so many ideas, such thorough experience of the illness, and an encyclopedic understanding of the human body, but when my brain is functioning on the level of pocket lint, the bulk of it flies right over my head, smacks against the wall, and all I can remember are a few keywords. Thus, the transcription." http://nopostergirl.com/2013/05/30/the-post-appointment-post-2013-part-i/
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page