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Cheney on Gut Dysbiosis

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Cort, Jul 29, 2009.

  1. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Cheney's first newsletter is out. He had some things to say about the gut. http://cheneyclinic.com/gut-dysbiosis-modulates-significant-cfs-symptoms/247

    I like Cheney's honesty here: his GMP, anyway, will not cure and sometimes has little effect. Then again it may not be - certainly is not actually - as extensive as De Meirleir's program - which involves antibiotics. Cheney does not to my knowledge use antibiotics.

    Interesting - for someone who said he was tired of chasing viruses - he now says that 'viruses are at the core of CFS' as well as the redox problems he's focusing on. It could be that he always thought viruses were key but was simply tired of chasing them down (unsuccessfully) with antivirals.

    Artesunate - usually thought of as an antibacterial but which also has antiviral properties- is being used to hit the viruses but apparently not the bacterial overgrowth. This appears to suggest that he believes that the bacterial overgrowth in the gut is secondary. One wonders if Artesunate has any effectiveness against those bacteria.

    http://aboutmecfs.org/Trt/Artesunate.aspx

    Raw food! That's interesting. Raw food is good for me.

    Glad Cheney is getting this out there. They all should really - DeMeirleir, Peterson, Lapp, Klimas....little bits now and then would be very helpful. Although I have to say I hope he devotes more time to the next issue!
  2. ChuckG

    ChuckG

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    Bold added.

    Don't believe anything is absorbed in the stomach. Most absorption takes place in the small intestine

    From Wikipedia;
  3. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    So the stomach just breaks everything up - and the intestines absorb the nutrients. That makes perfect sense to me - those cells lining the stomach must be as tough as can be to withstand that acid environment; they're probably just going to wall everything off - not be uploading nutrients. All those villi and sacs in the intestines do that.

    These are the kind of 'slips' that bug the heck out of me with Dr. Cheney. Right on his new website! I bored down into his cardiac theory when it came out several years ago. It prompted a full set of papers on my website and stuff like that happened too often - mistakes that you would not think he would make. With his reputation I was really surprised. He's does speak loosely at times and seems so sharp at others....hard to know what to think:(
  4. Frank

    Frank Senior Member

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    yeah the textbook says that foods get absorbed in the gut not in the stomach. Anyway glucose is the form of "sugar" that doesn't need any work done to it, glucose is the only form that can be absorbed directly in the blood.
  5. Tinkerbell

    Tinkerbell

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    Does anyone know more about dr.Cheney's theory on oxygen toxicity in cfs? can't find more information about this on his new website:confused:
  6. Frickly

    Frickly Senior Member

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    The gut and the brain...

    I have had my son on a gluten/casein free diet for several months along with digestive enzymes and many other supplements. I ran out of digestive enzymes on sunday and my son has regressed and has been going into rages all week (this is his normal behavior before treatment). Many of his old behaviors are returning and I could not figure out why.

    I am reading "changing the course of autism" and skipped to the chapeter on treating dysbiosis. Dr. Jepson discusses a study and survey that reported an 87% inmprovement in autistic children who used digestive enzymes. Areas of improvement included neurological symptoms such as mood, attention, eye contact, socialization and GI symptoms.

    After reading this and talking to a friend with a simular experience with digestive enzymes it dawned on my this is what caused the downward turn in my sons behavior (went out immediatly to get a supply of TriEnza). Dr. Jepson also says that a number of his patients parents report an improvement in neurological symtoms as well as GI.

    I have also noticed that if my son eats a food that is restricted that he immediatly regresses and becomes hyper. It is as if he is on drugs and is totally uncontrollable (unusually happy). For the last couple of years I and his psychiatrist have been concerned that this could be signs of bipolor disorder as it runs in my family. I am beginning to beleive that this behavior is food related.

    Anyway....this is just another confirmation for me that gut and brain do, indeed, have a strong connection and there is still much to be learned in this area. I am also very excited that all our hard work is beginning to pay off.
  7. Frickly

    Frickly Senior Member

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    Cort

    "Glucose tabs will not typically reach the intestines and are absorbed in the stomach but I would spit it out anyway after chewing it for pre-treatment of CSF’s. Disaccharides such as sucrose (common table sugar) and lactose (milk sugar) as well as the monosaccharide fructose are much more of a problem as well as some more difficult to digest starches (bread and soluble fiber). These can get into the intestines and down to the colon where they are substrate for the production of D-Lactate and H2S. The aggressive use of digestive enzymes or eating raw food with intact enzymes will help as well. You want your food digested high in the gut, especially carbohydrates.

    Raw food! That's interesting. Raw food is good for me."

    Cort, Remember that, in order for the nutrients in raw vegis to be absorbed properly, you must eat a little fat with it. I always put olive oil on mine.
  8. mojoey

    mojoey Senior Member

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    Hey Cort

    Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents about Cheney:even though he does seem to change his mind a lot, I appreciate his near sense of shamelessness and total sense of honesty about what he feels at any moment is the truth. Most researchers/MDs tend to get pigeon-holed in their hypotheses and we all know how far confirmation bias can take us with even the most fallacious theories. I'm glad to see Cheney is always on the go..he seems to get a little closer with every theory.

    I'm not sure that artesunate is enough on its own as an antiviral/antibacterial. For chronic lyme patients, monotherapy with one type of herb or antibiotic almost never seems to work, and Dr. Zhang has incorporated high-quality artesunate in his protocol.

    Even if Cheney doesn't believe that viruses are at the heart of the illness, proverbially anyway, they still need to be addressed when you're revamping the system with genetic therapy. Chronic lyme patients that have gone to India for stem cell therapy say the success rate is much higher when they've continued antibiotics prior to the treatment, and some even had to continue afterwards. Our viral/bacterial loads have had time to fester and colonize for years... genetic therapy/stem cell therapy can prevent future pathogenic spread, but even a revamped immune system can use a few helping hands to bring down the workload.
  9. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Thank Frickly for the tip. That's amazing stuff about the enzymes Frickly and does suggest that undigested food can wreak havoc down there. Makes me think I should try them again.

    One thing about Cheney - I saw him for about a year and a half - he is the enthusiastic practitioner I've ever seen. After 20 years he is still jazzed about this subject; his face just lights up when he talks about it. I don't know if he's right or not but he is probably the most creative and probably daring physician we have. Every field needs a couple people who are willing to get out on the little branches.

    I think mJooey makes a very good point; we're all trying to learn here but treating ME/CFS can be quite multi-dimensional - artesunate or X or Y factor is probably not going to do it by itself. Hilary Clinton said 'It takes a Village' - maybe with ME/CFS it takes a multi-dimensional treatment plan and, in lieu of a physician, a community like we're building to help people come up with as good a one as they can.
  10. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Agree with you all. ME/CFS, or CFS/ME, it's definitely multi-dimensional, IMHO, and that's why it will always be difficult to treat...because we all have different multiple triggers, and/or are susceptible to different triggers. On top of that, some of us can tolerate certain meds/supplements/foods, while others cannot...something partially addressed by RichVanK's hypothesis and the possible P450 detox issues, which may be different in all of us.

    Raw food is good, but some can tolerate raw food, others need their food cooked, even if it's slightly cooked, in order to make the food more digestible. Plus, raw organic food, should be blanched anyway, to kill possible parasites. (Think of what is used as organic fertilizer...;))

    Thanks for mentioning the digestive enzymes Frickly. Very, very important (just wish they weren't so pricey!). A google search will turn up lots of info...there's a great book out a few years ago called "Enzymes, Go with Your Gut", by Karen DeFelice...very, very informative, backed up with lots of clinical studies and research.

    d-b

    p.s. We had a nurse practitioner speak to our local group a few months back...she said that 95% of her patients were deficient in stomach acid (hydrochloric acid). So some may have to supplement w/betaine HCL w/pepsin, at least for awhile. (I used to have to take 8 capsules with a meal (8 years ago)...am now down to 2 or 3.
  11. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    Cheney stuff

    Hi, all; I too am one who has great respect for Cheney, despite his sometimes odd phrasing and elliptical and unsupported statements. But it was his "The Heart of the Matter" that first made me recognize that CFS was what I had, and his explanations there still account better for many of my symptoms than any other I have come across, including the periodic spikes in blood pressure (reducing the diameter of the outflow valve to increase the pressure so that the further rows of tomatoes can get some water--remember?).

    I am currently trying Artesunate, and feeling hopeful that it will produce some results--his report that it has rolled back diastolic dysfunction in many of his patients is really exciting news, and I am hoping I can reproduce that in time...

    I think it a bit unfortunate that he used the phrase "we are toxic to oxygen"--if I understand his latest DVD (and there is no guarantee on that!) this means that because our anti -oxident systems are broken, oxygen has become toxic to us, because it produces unmanageable reactive oxygen species, and we get burned up. So our clever bodies develop ways of keeping oxygen out of our bodies, which of course reduces the amount of energy available. His central, dominating metaphor seems always (at least since "The Heart of the Matter") to have been that we develop CFS as a way of saving ourselves from worse fates (the "event horizon" in "The Heart of the Matter").

    It follows from that that those products taken to raise our energy production levels--Q10, Ribose, Carnitine--would initiate a "backflash" of energy loss as our bodies rush to protect us from that push towards more energy production and thus more oxygen uptake. I don't know whether this is good explanation on my part, or good science on Cheney's part, but it makes a kind of sense to me.

    Now if someone could explain my current problem --that, as Freddd warns, adding Q10 to the methylation/ B12 mix raises blood pressure noticeably... But
    I suspect that if anyone could, it would be Cheney.
    Best wishes, Chris
  12. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Cheney

    Hi Chris,

    Thanks for your post. I believe that sometimes Cheney just thinks out loud (a possibly dangerous thing for a doc to do :) But the thing I really like about him is that he has so much respect for his patients. As you know in his video about cardiac insufficiency, he does not talk down to his non-medical/patient audience and encourages them to get and read an anatomy book!! After many of us have been told that we just focus on our illness too much, or talk to us like we are stupid, that is refreshing.

    I believe you are right when you say the CoQ10 might initiate a "backflash". In addition to that, I believe he tests his patients using a cardiac feedback system. Using this system I believe he finds that the majority of his CFS patients read that CoQ10 is something they need to avoid. He has had some success in doing this, and I am thankful for his persistence and for the patients who are basically using themselves as lab rats.

    Take care,

    Maxine
  13. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Hi Chris,

    I am probably too tired to be answering this question and expect it to make sense - had a decent day and did too much:mad:

    But haven't you answered your own question here? Isn't the question why your blood pressure goes up when you add Q10 to your regimen because of the "backflash" - more oxygen uptake - more adrenaline - higher blood pressure.

    Hope that made sense - going to eat dinner....bed....zzzzzzzzzzzz

    Maxine
  14. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

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    coq10, biotec extra energy enzymes

    I read Cheney's heart articles a long time ago, after I had been sick for a long time. It took another long time for me to realize that the reason we seemed to be deficient in so many things was because digestion was being hindered by a bad intestinal state.

    Anyway, coq10 is necessary for heart function. The statin drugs reduce production of coq10 and there are some lawsuits over this. Anyone who has read Cheney knows that the heart has more mitochondria than any other muscle. If the coq10 is increasing blood pressure, my guess is that the poor heart and the rest of the body has been compensating for the lack of it and now that it has it, it's functioning better - just like Weldman is pointing out.

    I took all the ATP precursors and got more energy. But when I read Cheney's article where he says to beware of doing that because you'll crash from the extra energy (long story shortened drastically), I began studying how to increase the antioxidant enzymes in the body. I found a product called Biotec Extra Energy Enzymes. They are the precursors to catalase and superoxide dismutase. They worked great for me, not so great for one person that I know of who tried them. The first day I got them I popped 3 pills and within an hour my brain cleared up noticeably. Since that day, I have been able to stay up past 9 o'clock at night. Before that, I was always out by 9. That was the first thing I noticed. They also reduced my PEM.

    They weren't the cure-all I thought they were going to be when I first discovered them, but they definitely help the body with the enzymes it's lacking. All the big CFS doctors agree that for the most part, we have nutritional deficiencies. But why can't they all see that it's because of a bad gut? I guess Cheney came around, but I don't think Teteilbaum has. Maybe he's getting too rich off all these supplements. Still, even if Cheney finally agrees the gut has to be dealt with, the medical profession doesn't have any solid, safe, effective means of treating it. I am doing it with diet and supplements and it's not that easy. It takes a long time and you have to be monitoring it closely for changes and you have to deal with them.

    The docs are right about the nutritional deficiencies, that's why the supplements work. But they all work in different combinations for all of us because of the complications in the intestines. Digestion has been compromised because of the bad gut and now we can't break down, absorb and assimilate nutrients from food. So taking the nutrients in concentrated forms in supplements allows some of them to get through. I have found that being a lab rat is not the easiest or best way, but it was better than lying around feeling like I was dying. But now I've found Farr and know there are people like him who can deal with supplements and diet scientifically and properly.

    Find your expert if you can afford to so you can forget the general recommendations. But above all, do your homework - learn about your gut and digestion and liver, so you know why what you are taking is working. Kudos to Freddd, he did his homework and found out his problem with the B12. Doctors aren't as smart as you and I have always been led to believe. They are drug salesmen, trained in the sales of drugs, NOT what is the safest and most effective treatment for the body. But we can learn about these ourselves.

    Everyone should check out the protocol listed at beatcfsandfms.org. Use their tips to select the proper health care practitioner and quit being strung along by the medical profession. CFS is a misdiagnosis and an excuse for the medical profession to avoid the issue of intestinal dysbiosis and hyperpermeability - the key to most chronic diseases. Basically, they need to keep things complicated so they can defend their high prices. Your health does not come first, their profits do. Find your REAL problems, they can be dealt with. Mine were gut dysbiosis, hyperpermeability (only NOW am I aware that there are plenty of pubmed articles addressing these issues) and heavy metal poisoning due to the accumulation of lead, mercury and others - these metals were able to accumulate in my body because I didn't address the proper issues from the very beginning. I didn't know all this back then and now I am paying for my ignorance. I always thought CFS should have been named Multi Metabolic System Failure. "Chronic Fatigue" makes it sound like we just need a chair. :(
  15. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    I don't think this is necessary if they are well washed. Well it does not seem to be a problem for me, juicing every day for a few months now.

    I am also gluten and dairy free since this week (previously wheat free) and have seen a considerable improvement in energy levels,the best improvement I have seen yet. I am also taking digestive enzymes each time I eat. It is proving to be correct in my own progress in healing, that the gut is the seat of the problem and must be dealt with first and research moves more towards that.
  16. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Brenda/raw produce/juicing

    Hi Brenda,

    I went on a similiar diet for 18 months and got a lot of improvement. But I didn't take digestive enzymes and eventually the diet got unmanageable. Can you share what digestive enzymes you take?

    Also, when I was doing a lot of juicing, I soaked them in a water/grapefruit seed extract solution for a few minutes before scrubbing them.

    Take care,

    Maxine
  17. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    I have been taking Udo's Choice but have run out so am using some ones I got locally but I hope to do some research and get the best I can. Good idea on the soaking, I will have to try that thanks.
  18. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    Q10 BP Blues

    Hi, Maxine; thanks for your suggestion--that may be the key, though I do not always get a rise in BP when my energy level goes up for a day or two--the reaction seems specific to the combo of B12 and Q10. I think I am going to try to switch back to Hydroxycobalamin (have to go buy some, having followed Freddd into Methyl) to see if that makes a difference. There is good evidence for the benefits of Q10 (despite Cheney)--see Dr. S. Sinclair's Metabolic Cardiology--and I would like to be able to add some to my protocol. Will experiment further--we are all, as a previous post well said, lab rats, and might as well try to enjoy our fated playing around. Best, Chris
  19. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Hi Chris,

    Is that S. Sinclair's or S. Sinatra's?

    Thanks,

    Maxine

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