Professor & patients' paper on the solvable biological challenge of ME/CFS: reader-friendly version
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Cheney on Growth Hormone

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by amaru7, Mar 16, 2015.

  1. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    in the past 4 years I have spend alot of money, time and effort on different doctor visits and many vitamins, minerals, fatty acids, amino acids, ribose, detoxification, methylation etc. and my conclusion today is that it all has been a waste and has failed me. I'm still disabled, mostly housbound and am not able to pursue life in any normal fashion.

    Anyway I try not to be negative my last hope (next to stimulants, but that's another story) is HGH, which I'm going to try asap, so I researched it and stumbled upon this posting on ProHealth Forums, which I thought I'd share with you. It gave me a slight hope that this might be the cure I and many of you are looking for.

    PS: for those interested, GH is immensly expensive, so consider only if you can afford it.

    Source: http://forums.prohealth.com/forums/index.php?threads/dr-cheney-on-human-growth-hormone.84632/

    Love, Mikie

    ***************************

    Cheney on Growth Hormone and Bovine Growth Factors: Information for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia Patients
    ImmuneSupport.com

    07-03-2002

    Author’s note: This article is based on tapes of Carol Sieverling’s October 2000 visit to Dr. Cheney. He gave permission to share this information, but has not reviewed or edited it. This article is likely to apply also to FM patients who experience cognitive difficulties in addition to pain and fatigue, since Dr. Cheney believes they may also have CFS.
    Dr. Cheney has 16 patients poised to begin his most promising study yet. The six-month trial involves injections of growth hormone (GH) and five different kinds of bovine growth factors (bGFs). Dr. Cheney believes this may be helpful to phase III patients "who are symptomatically improved but physically limited", and some phase II patients who are treatment resistant.

    Per Cheney, "The study is an ambitious but promising attempt to stimulate the body’s innate healing potential to repair damage done to it over years of CFS related pathology." An oversimplified explanation is that GH provides the construction workers and bGFs provide the blueprints to repair the damage to the brain and organ systems.

    WHAT DOES GH DO? It stimulates the growth of muscles and bones, helps regulate metabolism, slows the production of fatty tissue, helps maintain blood sugar levels for the brain, helps regulate all other hormones, and mobilizes fat, making it available to the cells as an alternative fuel. In healthy people, GH levels are near zero most of the time but spike in response to physical stress. Protein synthesis is the primary function of GH.

    That is why it spikes in response to exercise - because exercise breaks down muscle. GH then repairs it better than before. It is called training and your body gets stronger. But if you try to train when you have no GH, you induce micro-trauma and your muscles break down instead of becoming stronger.

    GH is associated with stage four sleep. A major spike should also occur in the middle of your "night", whenever that maybe. GH and stage 4 sleep are interdependent, like the chicken and the egg: no GH, no stage four sleep; no stage four sleep, no GH.

    Dr. Cheney stated "At 3 a.m. the liver comes up and maximally detoxifies. Isn’t it interesting that the body spikes GH not long before the liver needs it? It primes the liver. If you don’t get the priming with GH at midnight, then your liver doesn’t work and you become more toxic." (Times are relative to your own sleep pattern.)

    CFIDS IS A GH DEFICIENCY SYNDROME. Dr. Cheney first learned this when reading a Ph.D. thesis by Greta Moorkens published in May 2000. Using the Insulin Tolerance Test (ITT), Moorkens found that CFS patients had, on average, a 50% reduction in GH. Her patients, however, had only been ill an average of 18 months, a relatively short time. Dr. Cheney suspected patients who have been ill longer might have a more profound deficiency. He also knew he could no longer rely on the standard IgF-1 test to measure GH, since Moorkens’ paper showed it was not a reliable measurement of GH.

    To compare two different testing methods, Dr. Cheney used both the ITT and a maximum exercise test – a bicycle stress test. He drew blood before the bike test, and again ten and twenty minutes after the test. The ITT was only done on a few patients because this test is so hard on them physically. Dr. Cheney believes the bicycle test is safer. Both tests gave the same shocking results in each patient: no growth hormone response at all, not even a tiny spike.

    Dr. Cheney has tested three of our local members using the bike test. Two had no GH response. One had a small spike. Twenty minutes after the test she had a level of 5.6 ng/mL. The middle of the normal range is 24; anything under 10 is deficient.

    DANGERS OF GH DEFICIENCY

    Dr. Cheney explains that if your GH response is zero that means serious trouble. "You lack sufficient control of protein synthesis to respond to exercise, to respond to stage four sleep, to respond to the needs of detox, and all kinds of other problems."

    To make matters worse, if your immune system is TH2 dominant (as is the case in most CFIDS patients - see next article), the only thing standing between you and cancer, viral infections and intracellular bacteria is RNase L, which you cannot make without GH. It is a very serious problem.

    GH DOSING & FREQUENCY

    Six months of experience in using GH injections in his patient population have convinced Dr. Cheney that it is one of the most powerful treatments for a CFIDS patient. However, the dose and the frequency of the dose are critical. The standard dose (0.1 to 0.2 cc’s given three times a week) put Dr. Cheney’s patients in bed. In his words, they crashed and burned. To give that much to a seriously deficient patient is a "command directive" to increase protein synthesis, including RNase L. That is very expensive in terms of energy. With no energy to spare, the body must redirect every ounce to protein synthesis. The GH may trigger the production of RNase L, which is both good and bad, but too much of it contributes to the crash.

    Regarding the dose and frequency of the GH injections, Dr. Cheney's study protocol states "Previous clinical observations in CFS patients have suggested that optimal doses will range between 0.005 and 0.02 mg/kg administered every five days, up to three times a week. Begin subcutaneous injections of rhGH in the thigh with 0.005 mg/kg every five days when you receive the rhGH cartridge and sterile water dilutant. During the first several injections, you may note fatigue and lethargy. With time you should resolve these symptoms and can advance to between 0.01 mg/kg and 0.02 mg/kg given twice a week. The correct dose is achieved when you experience a slight boost in energy hours after the injection and even more energy the next day.

    The energy boost should then decline with every day thereafter until the next rhGH injection. We recommend the shots be given when you arise or during the daytime just before heightened activity begins. Some patients will prefer to give the injections just before bedtime as it may substantially improve sleep quality. Some patients may wish to advance the injection frequency to three times a week if there is no adverse response to this. We recommend you experiment, within the boundaries we set, with dose (0.005 - 0.02 mg/kg), frequency (every fifth day to three times per week) and time of day (AM to PM)."

    The study protocol continues "One common manufacturer of rhGH uses a dual cartridge with 5.8 mg of rhGH powder on one side and 1.17 cc of sterile water on the other side. The cartridge is shipped overnight and must be refrigerated immediately upon receipt. Following a puncture and mixing procedure within the cartridge itself, the final solution contains 5.0 mg per cc in 1.17 cc. It is important to note that after mixing, the rhGH is only good for three weeks. At a 0.01 mg/cc dose given twice a week, about 40% of the cartridge would be discarded. Another manufacturer requires that the patient mix the 5.8 mg (15 units) of rhGH powder himself with 1-3 cc's of sterile water from a separate vial of sterile water supplied through a kit.

    It also will last three weeks and is 30% cheaper. RhGH is also supplied in a 1.5 mg cartridge but it only lasts 24 hrs after mixing. However, a special dilution procedure done by the patient will extend the product life for three weeks. Choosing which product to use can be a complicated choice between ease of use and expense, and hinges on dose or frequency, which will be changing and cannot be predicted."

    The previous two paragraphs can seem confusing if not contradictory because of the different units used. All that can be said at this time is that the Cheney Clinic confirms that despite the mg/kg used in the first paragraph on dosage, body weight is not a factor, and that all study participants begin with only the top fraction of a one cc syringe filled with GH.

    TWO SUCCESSFUL CASES

    One very ill patient was sensitive to everything: vitamins, drugs, supplements, food, and the environment. He was very sallow from liver dysfunction and his white count was 2. He has been the most dramatic response so far. His liver function has come back; his immune system has come back. He is now responding to interventions that have never worked in the past.

    Another patient was menopausal and was on thyroid medication, estrogen and progesterone. After beginning GH injections, she cut her thyroid medication in half. Her periods resumed and she no longer needs to take progesterone.

    According to Dr. Cheney, growth hormone encodes the receptors for all the other hormones. If you do not have any GH, none of your other hormones can work properly. Many female CFIDS patients appear menopausal, yet estrogen levels in their saliva and urine are sky high. Estrogen goes right through them because there are no longer any receptor cites encoded to receive it.

    BALANCE THE IMMUNE SYSTEM FIRST. Growth hormone raises immune function, but it activates the TH2 side in particular. Thus, it is important to balance the immune system before beginning GH injections.

    RISKS OF TAKING GROWTH HORMONE

    (1) It is expensive. However, if a deficiency is documented with the ITT or a maximum exercise challenge, insurance companies will usually pay.

    (2) CFIDS patients are sensitive to it, so it is imperative to get the dose and frequency right.

    (3) Growth hormone does not cause cancer, but it will increase the growth rate of any undetected cancer. Patients should have routine screening exams.

    Dr. Cheney also strongly recommends the AMAS test (Anti-Malignant Antibody Screen). This blood test detects all forms of cancer, even in the early stages. It is based on the well-published discovery by two Harvard professors that all cancers express a substance that triggers the production of certain antibodies. It is covered by Medicare and costs about $135. (Call 1-800-922-8378 for information or a test kit.)

    (4) Axis Suppression [The author believes Dr. Cheney is referring to the HPA axis – hypothalamus, pituitary and adrenal.] Dr. Cheney commented, "If I give GH, will I suppress your own endogenous capacity to make it? If I did that, I commit you to GH forever. But this is not a concern if you have no axis to begin with!"

    REPAIRING THE DEFICIENCY

    Dr. Cheney asked the rhetorical questions, "Can the damage that caused the GH deficiency be repaired? Can we resuscitate your hypothalamus and your axis? Yes, we can. How? The same way they cured the Parkinsonian patients featured in the May 22 issue of Newsweek." Parkinson’s Disease involves the death of certain brain cells, causing a progressive loss of muscle control that eventually leads to paralysis and death. In this revolutionary study, doctors grafted fetal stem cells into nineteen Parkinsonian recipients. Sixteen of the grafts "took.” Of those, the stem cells repaired the damage to the brain and cured the disease in patients who were under 60 years of age. If they were over 60, the process did not work. The difference? Growth hormone! For stem cells to work, the body has to have enough GH.”

    STEM CELLS

    Stem cells are embryonic, undifferentiated cells capable of becoming virtually any cell of the body. According to Dr. Cheney, "Stem cell differentiation into a neuron and integration to repair the brain is a highly protein synthesis-intensive process. Without GH, the stem cells do not work." "You might say, 'Dr. Cheney, they used stem cells and you are talking about growth factors, not stem cells.' Well, ten years ago when they started this research, they did not think there were any stem cells in the body, especially at the 60-year mark. But recent research has proven that there are stem cells in the body. All we have to do is turn them on. And growth factors turn them on!"

    Cheney explained how scientists have repaired brain injuries in monkeys; it was not necessary to give them stem cells. Stem cells were already there just waiting for a message and enough protein synthesis to work. Scientists were able to repair the monkey's brains using bovine growth factors, which trigger the stem cells.

    However, the monkeys already had plenty of GH before their bGF therapy. Cheney stated, "So what we need to do is give you GH, then add bovine growth factors. If this works, then we repair your hypothalamus, and your axis comes back, your endogenous capacity to make GH comes back, and then we get you off GH."

    Cheney said, "I don't like the idea of injecting this patient population with GH for the rest of their lives. I'd rather just give it to you for a short time, while you heal your systems. But I have yet to determine that. Worst case, you're committed to GH for the duration. Best case, just until such time as we repair the injury that causes the GH deficiency. And if that works, of course, then we have a lot of good things to do in the area of CFIDS. Almost everything else is somewhat secondary to these central features."

    DOCUMENTING BRAIN REPAIR

    "How do we prove that we have repaired the brain? One way is functional: give the bicycle test to show that your growth hormone response to exercise, which was deficient initially, comes back after therapy."

    The other way to prove brain injury is to actually measure the injury itself. Cheney sends his patients to Columbia Medical Center in New York for an MRS (Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy) for this measurement. He recommends it to many of his patients, not just those in this study. This is a good test for disability documentation. The readout of this test is a horizontal line with periodic spikes of different heights. Each spike represents a particular substance or chemical.

    This particular MRS scan is of the hypothalamus and the cerebrospinal fluid in the body in the left ventricle of the brain. Dr. Shungu, a spectroscopy expert and a professor of radiology, does the test.

    Dr. Shungu examines four particular spikes in CFS patients:

    1) Coline. It is involved in the myelin sheath, and a decrease indicates Multiple Sclerosis.

    2) Creatine Phosphate. It is usually elevated in CFS patients and indicates the increased stored energy of the anaerobic system. The author believes this may be related to the injured aerobic energy pathway so typical of CFS, and the corresponding increased reliance on the anaerobic pathway.

    3) NAA. If this is decreased, as is typical in CFS, it indicates brain cell death.

    4) Lactic Acid. There should be none present; this is what is glaringly elevated in most CFS patients tested. It indicates a high degree of tolerance to the damage to the aerobic system. Cheney commented "If the viability spike, NAA, increases after therapy and the lactic acid spike decreases, it means we are repairing the brain." HISTORY OF GF USE

    Growth Factors (GF) were used eighteen years ago at UCLA to repair bones that would not heal. The first publication of their use was in 1982. In Europe, they have been in use much longer. Cheney noted, "Pope Pius XII received injections on his death bed in 1952 and lived four more years. GFs have been around a long time, but it has only been in the last ten years that we have begun to discover how they really work."

    "You do not have to use human growth factors. You can use mammalian GFs. They inaugurate stem cell differentiation. It will become whatever is needed. The stem cell will repair any injury. All you need are growth factors and sufficient growth hormone."

    YOUNG PEOPLE WITH CFS – 90% RECOVERY

    "Nine times out of ten, young people with CFIDS recover. But past 20, you’re lucky to see one out of ten get through it. Why? Growth Hormone. You have to have enough GH to get through it. Young people still get hit, some very hard, but they have so much GH that they can loose 50% and still have enough. Once you reach 20, your GH is half what is was at 15. It drops precipitously after puberty."

    "I think this syndrome transforms you into a very low GH state, and once that happens you can't really repair the damage. You can get through the syndrome, maybe; get through the pathophysiology of the disease, maybe; but then you're locked in, you're limited. So, to repair the damage - and the focus of that damage is the hypothalamus - you need GH. And since GH seems to be the center of aging, essentially the treatment of Phase III CFIDS is going to mimic the treatment of age-related injury."

    Cheney believes that younger people may only need GH, not the Bovine Growth Factors (bGF), since they could still have functioning growth factors. Older patients will certainly need the bGFs. Even if they have some functioning GFs, taking the bGFs is expected to accelerate the healing process.

    WHICH BOVINE GROWTH FACTORS?

    Those in the study will take GH the entire six months. They will begin mesenchyme fetal bGF the second month and continue it for the duration. The four remaining bGFs, liver, thymus, adrenal and brain, are taken consecutively for a period of one month each. The study protocol states "GH is expected to significantly increase the bGFs healing potential as orchestrators of endogenous stem cell migration, differentiation and integration to effect tissue healing. The target tissues for healing in this study are liver, immune system, adrenal gland and especially the hypothalamus."
     
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  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    There are cheaper alternative routes:

    You can use injectable products such as CJC-1295. This costs around $25 for 2 mg (about a weeks supply), available at many body-building websites. CJC-1295 has been shown to be just as effective as HGH injections in the case of HGH deficiency.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2015
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  3. Jon_Tradicionali

    Jon_Tradicionali Alone & Wandering

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    Zogor-Ndreaj, Shkodër, Albania
    @Hip

    Have you tried GH yet?

    I've tried all three HPA glandulars with no success.
     
  4. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    @Hip I don't trust research chemicals to really contain what its supposed and wouldn't inject them. Not even sure if I have GH deficiency, I have to tests, both were low HGH, which was to be expected as it gets secreted in the sleep and IGF-1 was once low and once normal, I tend to think that blood work isn't a reliable way due to fluctuations. The route I'm going now is trial and error.

    @Jon_Tradicionali For you and all the others: All oral GH secreting products don't work increasing GH like injections do. The only alternative are peptides and these too have to be injected as they get destroyed in the somach.
     
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  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I have not tried actual human growth hormone (HGH), but I am now just starting my second test with the HGH releasing peptide CJC-1295 this week. I am injecting 125 micrograms of CJC-1295 once each day subcutaneously into my belly, for 2 weeks. CJC-1295 is popular among body builders.

    There are also several other potent HGH-stimulating peptides that body builders inject, such as GHRP-2, GHRP-6, ipamorelin and hexarelin.

    I compiled some notes, taken from various online articles, for each of these peptides. Most of the peptides in my notes are HGH-release stimulating peptides, and hormone fragment peptides. A hormone fragment is just a functional sub-part of the full hormone protein molecule. Such hormone fragments do not have the full set of properties of the hormone, but have a subset of the hormone's properties.

    For example, the peptide called HGH Fragment 176-191 is the segment of the HGH molecule that signals the release of energy from fat stores. So this HGH Fragment 176-191 peptide has potent fat loss effects, but does not exhibit the other properties of HGH.

    The advantage of these peptide fragments of hormones is that they are much cheaper to produce that the full hormone, and in some cases are safer than the full hormone. They also have more specific effects, so you can select a peptide fragment to match your particular purposes.


    I am also testing out the peptide TB-500, which is similar to the naturally-occurring hormone thymosin beta-4 (TB4) which has potent neurological healing properties. More details of TB-500 given below.

    Here are my notes on these HGH-related peptides and other peptides, in case they are of use:
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2015
  6. satori

    satori

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    How was GH measured after the bike test? Maybe I spaced this one out, but I wasn't clear on this. Was it just the IGF test?
     
  7. awkwardlymodern

    awkwardlymodern Forcing the past to blend with the future

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    Glad to see the GH axis being discussed here!:) I think it's really important to ME/CFS. And generally under-researched.

    On a more sober note, sorry to crash the party here but I just want to warn people, some of these peptides are pretty immunogenic, and it's especially dangerous if you order online because the product safety varies from vendor to vendor and there's no sure way for you to know you're safe without getting it through a pharmacy. Residues and exogenous proteins from manufacturing process can attach to the peptides in a way that attracts antibodies.

    I wouldn't worry as much if your only diagnosis is ME/CFS, but watch out if you have a "side order" or two of autoimmune disease (I have Hashi's and celiac).

    I have pretty severe (-3SD age-adjusted) IGF-1 deficiency. In my case it results from GH and ghrelin resistance, not GH deficiency but that's another story--if you are underweight with a low appetite and difficulty gaining weight despite your caloric intake, you might want to look into GH resistance, ghrelin, and your ghrelin/leptin balance. I'll start a thread on this when I get a chance.

    In 2012 I tried GHRP-6 for two months. That worked out OK but I didn't notice much of a difference; then I tried GHRP-2+CJC-1295. I got sick that night with a fever followed by total insomnia for five days, and I am not entirely sure, but the GHRP-2/CJC combo may have been one of the factors that set me into a nasty progression of my disease that year.

    I think GH, IGF-1 and GHRP-6 from a reputable source have decent risk/reward ratios. To be safe, you can also monitor anti-GH antibodies.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2015
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  8. awkwardlymodern

    awkwardlymodern Forcing the past to blend with the future

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    The GH was measured directly--IGF indirectly approximates your average GH levels over a couple days, it doesn't show the short-term fluctuations of GH release from exercise, stress, sleep etc.
     
  9. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    If your ACTH is high due to low cortisol, this can also affect your IGF1 level and make it look higher than it actually is. IGF1 testing for GH is not straightforward at all. A stimulation test is really the gold standard but the ITT can be very dangerous and hardly anyone does the arginine test anymore because insurance won't accept it for GH coverage.
     
  10. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    @awkwardlymodern that's the reason why I wouldn't mess with any research chemicals, only pharma grade gh. I have cfs and reactive depression, but fortunately no autoimmune disease. The reason why I can take try gh, which as you mentioned correctly simulates The immune system and could lead to issues in underlying immune malfunction.
     
  11. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    The musst intriguing thing to me is that igf 1 has repairing effects on the brain.

     
  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    If anyone wants to try IGF-1, it is available as a natural supplement in the form of deer antler velvet (the velvet coating on deer antler is naturally high in IGF-1). This is taken sublingually.

    The deer antler velvet I bought was the Nutronics Labs IGF-1 Plus Maximum (100,000 nanograms). By taking a sublingual dose of 140 nanograms of IGF-1 (which equates to one drop of this product), I found it improved my sleep (I slept a bit deeper). More than two drops of this product, though, and I found it creates an aggressive energy and disposition, which I don't like.

    Cheaper and purer IGF-1 can be found on the websites that sell peptide hormones to body builders, such as this one.
     
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  13. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    Wasn't GH originally sourced from rhesus and old world monkeys, then cadavers (until the Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease incidents) before becoming all synthetic (recombinant)?
     
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  14. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    @August59 yes but that's history.

    @Hip any oral peptide compound is crap. The only optimal way to raise IGF1 is through hgh injections.

    The alternative of injecting IGF1 lr3 is a viable one but there's no approved product, all illegal underground labs in China creating these products, which to me is not worth the risk.
    Pharmaceutical grade Hgh is the best way to go if you can afford it (there are cheaper sources, especially in bodybuilding circles)
     
  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Yes, but I was referring to sublingual administration of IGF-1, which works, although not as efficiently as injections.

    Where did you read that these peptides used by body builders are produced in illegal underground labs in China? It is not illegal to produce or sell peptides, so why would the labs be illegal?
     
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  16. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    Well there is no pharmaceutical grade official product that is sold by pharmacies and prescribed legally as opposed to growth hormone. That's what I meant. And where I live it is illegal to buy or sell any unapproved pharmaceutical product like IGF1 and ghrp.

    Now please let's get back to injectable gh first.

    I had an experience with gh 4 years ago, which did one thing only for me, amazingly enough it cured my impotence.

    But I didn't use it long enough to tell if it's really that useful for other cfs related problems. Especially brain fog, low energy, depression. That's my hope that I will be able to work again full time and get back my quality of life
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
  17. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    IGF1 and GHRP are both offered legally by prescription in the US.
     
  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Theses peptides can be legally sold on the understanding that they are not for human use. That's how they can do it legally. You buy them for non human use, and if you inject them, that's you own business. Thousands of body builders do inject them.

    And there are literally hundreds of websites that sell peptides and hormones used by body builders. See this list of websites for example. I can appreciate your concerns about not wanting to inject a product not sold for human consumption though.

    This concern does not apply to the deer antler velvet IGF-1 product, which is sold for human consumption and does work, as I have tested it many times. I have to be very careful with this deer antler velvet, because I found if I used more than a few drops sublingually of the Nutronics product mentioned above, it causes very significant aggression, like a sort of 'roid rage.

    A lot of these body builder websites also sell HGH which is manufactured for human consumption. Brand names for HGH include: Somatotropin, Somatropin, Genotropin, Jintropin, Kigtropin, Norditropin, Nutropin, Humatrope, Omnitrope, Saizen, Genshi. Some of these brand names are very inexpensive sources of HGH.

    If you search through the peptide websites I gave just above on these brand names, you will find some that sell this HGH.
     
  19. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    So back in 2002 Cheney was of the opinion that high deficiency was the sole cause of cfs. That is how it reads to me.

    That obviously didn't pan out to be true. This guy might be good but I wish he would stop coming out and saying that this or that is the definitive answer for cfs before he knows for sure.

    This is about the third or fourth claim I've heard from him. And none seem to have worked out. People may be putting words in his mouth. Who knows.

    Anyway years ago I tried hgh at a very small dose and very quickly felt a big improvement. I was told I wouldn't feel anything for a few months but I think it took about a week, so maybe for some of us it plays a big part.

    I Have read online that hgh is known for being one of the best treatments for cfsers. Never heard cure though. It will generally make even a well person feel better as over the age of about twenty our levels begin to drop.

    I was unable to continue it because of the price but will be using it again if I can afford it.

    @amaru7 how long did you use it for?
     
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  20. satori

    satori

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    Would Trans-d-tropin work? Is it that you are not releasing the HGH from the pituitary or that you just don't have it? I think Trans-d is off patent now (or close to it).
     

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