The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Chelation Conundrum

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dsnrbec, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. dsnrbec

    dsnrbec

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    I'm a new poster so will try to be brief and to the point. For over 50 years I had a mouth full of amalgam fillings. A lot of health challenges I've had in the past suddenly made sense when I learned about heavy metal toxicity several years ago. After a provoked challenge test which scored mercury and lead off the charts, I began the process of having a full dental restoration. This past December, I began chelation per the Cutler protocol but had to stop after 4 months due to adrenal fatigue. Looking back, I guess I wasn't doing enough to support them and have subsequently gone on a theraputic dose of hydrocortisone. About a month after I stopped chelating, I began having severe anxiety and shortness of breath/air hunger. Since I already knew I had a mthfr abnormality (homozygous 1298C) I decided to have the Vitamin Diagnostic methylation pathway test done which did show a methylation blockage. I am currently working with an ND to turn that around and the anxiety/breathing issues are somewhat better but not gone. My confusion lies in the fact that there are those who claim methylation blockages can't be fully resolved until the heavy metal burden is reduced and others who claim you shouldn't go near chelation until methylation pathways are fully open. I'm hoping there are those on this forum who have chosen one path or the other and can help me decide what to do. I feel sure my adrenals and thyroid are both severly affected by mercury but am terrified to resume chelation and make things worse. On the off chance that Rich or one of the other experts see this, I am posting my test results below. Thanks so much for helping this confused old lady.

    AMINO ACIDS IN PLASMA
    Nitrotyrosine 28.7 (1.1-6.8)
    Glutathione (oxidised) 0.51 (0.16-0.50)
    Glutathione (reduced) 3.0 (3.8-5.5)

    MISCELLANEOUS
    Ammonia (plasma) 50 (8-40)
    NO (nitric oxide) 83.5 (18.0-35.0)

    DERIVATES
    S-Adenosylmethionine (RBC) 225 (221-256)
    S-Adenosylhomocysteine(RBC) 52.8 (38.0-49.0)

    FOLIC ACID DERIVATES
    5-CH3-THF 6.9 (8.4-72.6)
    10-Formyl-THF 2.9 (1.5-8.2)
    5-Formyl-THF 3.80 (1.20-11.70)
    THF 0.53 (0.60-6.80)
    Folic Acid 14.0 (8.9-24.6)
    Folinic Acid (WB) 15.3 (9.0-35.5)
    Folic Acid, active (RBC) 326 (400-1500)

    BIOLOGICALI AMINES
    CATACHOLAMINES IN PLATELETS
    Histamine (whole blood) 29.4 (10.0-65.0)

    NUCLEOSIDE
    Adenosine 24.8 (16.8-21.4)
     
  2. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    dsn--I am sorry for your struggle. I have similar issues and am curious what Rich will say about this...?
     
  3. Anteah

    Anteah Senior Member

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    I can also second (or third) that. Chelation causes a major excitotoxicity symptoms for me, which make it harder to breathe. Sublingual edta chelation has also messed with my bile production, so i had to stop it for the time being. But even though i am not chelating any longer the anxiety is still here. I take gaba, phosphotydyl serine and valerian root to deal with it but its not budging much. Very frustrating and so i would also love to know what can be done.
     
  4. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    I don't know that anyone has a definitive answer to the methylation/chelation chicken/egg.

    Dr Ben Lynch thinks that where you start depends on where you're at:

    http://mthfr.net/mthfr-questions-methylation-questions-ask/2012/09/20/#comment-17800

    But doesn't get too specific.

    Mercury in the brain and inside the cells can only be reached by alpha lipoic acid. No other chelator comes close. Constant dose (round the clock) is important, or you redistribute it round the body & make yourself sicker. This is the Cutler protocol anyway - which I've used.

    However after 16 months of that I'm having big problems with sulphur foods (from the stirred-up mercury) so can't presently chelate. I may have to fix my methylation problems before I can resume - & am researching that now. Indeed that's why I'm here.
     
  5. npeden

    npeden NPeden, Monterey, CA

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    Johnmac, I have too much sulfur so wonder what I will do when it comes to cheltaing with ALA to get the deep down stuff. And you sort of answered my question about whether I have to stop my methylation protocol to chelate. Guess Dr. Ben says it depends on how you feel.

    I don't think my ND knows enough about chelation. He had me chelating with my amalgams (9) in and was unable to send me supporting evidence that this works. I had personal info from Dr. Hayes of Hg fame that it is not ok to chelated with amalgams so I stopped.

    What we were doing is not very Cutler-esq but may have been working to get my blood Hg lessened although chewing with amalgams would put it right back.

    Anyway, what he had me doing was DMSA 250 mg. twice a day for three days then 10 days of Thorne's Heavy Metal Support. BTW when I did the test, urine which I now know is the wrong test, with a high dose, 1000 mg. of DSMA I felt great; had tons of energy. The ND said this indicted that I need to get rid of heavy metals.

    I guess this is going to take years, yes? And what do you think about what this ND has me doing? I have a session Wed. to speak to him about this all.
     
  6. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Yep, it isn't okay to chelate with amalgams in, as you redistribute the mercury round your body - which can make you pretty sick. E.g. it could drag it out of your teeth & into your brain.

    And yes, any mercury you chelated from your blood or organs would just be replaced by the next lot that came out of your teeth. (It off-gases perpetually.)

    I've done methylation protocols + chelated, & they supported each other beautifully.

    Haven't heard of the Thorne product.

    According to Cutler (who is a PhD biochemist) DMSA will remove mercury from your blood & extracellular spaces, but not your brain & internal organs. You need alpha lipoic acid for that. (The only thing he believes can do it.) Both need to be taken 3-hourly around the clock, as you get the dreaded "redistribution" if you leaves doses for much longer than the agent's half-life.

    DMSA will also (slowly) get the lead out of you, including the inner bones, where a lot of it lives. That's a very good thing.

    Remember I am an amateur compared to David Hammond (who is on various facebook metal groups), and the moderators at the FDC - they really know their stuff. A slight "cult of Cutler" prevails, but you could ignore that.

    The ND doesn't sound like s/he doesn't know a lot about this.

    I chelated for two years & apparently got rid of most of my mercury. The way I tell that is that whereas I had to begin with tiny quantities (e.g. 15mg) of alpha lipoic acid because of the huge side-effects, I gradually increased (bigtime after beginning the SMP methylation protocol which included methylfolate) and can now chelate for 12 days two-hourly (just to speed it up a bit) with 250mg of ALA plus some DMPS or DMSA as a back-up (they help the process - they're adjuncts). The only side-effect is that I usually feel tired on day 12 + 1. That's pretty picayune so far as chelation side-effects go.

    Good luck npeden.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014
    npeden and maryb like this.
  7. npeden

    npeden NPeden, Monterey, CA

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    Ya, not happy with ND.

    I am concerned because I have too much sulfur and ALA is sulfur so I am wondering will I have to forgo my methylation while I chelate? I also have candida which I am leaving in place right now as I read on the frequent dose chelation site that killing off candida can make heavy metals pop up and make you very sick. So I am suddenly very appreciative of my f*ing candida...I use a lot of NAC to methylate. Do you think I can do that and take ALA to get to the deeper metals?
     
  8. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Again, way beyond my competence, sorry. Not sure what NAC is.

    I had tons of sulphur/thiol problems after a few months of chelation (the worst of anyone on the chelation forum), and I stopped them cold with the methylation protocol (m-folate to be exact).

    So ALA + methylation can work well together - tho I can't say whether they will for you.
     
    npeden likes this.
  9. npeden

    npeden NPeden, Monterey, CA

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  10. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Thanks np - I'll have a read.

    Many have done methylation & chelation at the one time. Doesn't mean you can, but it augurs well.
     
    npeden likes this.
  11. npeden

    npeden NPeden, Monterey, CA

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    I am a wimp, a c677t wimp. I have hired for a great rate a nutritionist who is also c677t and will hopefully teach me to eat over the next six months. She comes very highly rec. from another mutated friend. Here is her site: http://nourishedtable.com/

    I know most of you can do this on your own but with so many mental snps I am often confused and need the support, like yours, John. Many thanks.
     
  12. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Happy to support where I can, but a nutritionist who is also c677t sounds like s/he will be much more useful - a great find.
     
    npeden likes this.
  13. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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  14. npeden

    npeden NPeden, Monterey, CA

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    Johnmac, I am doing wonderfully on her recs. We are not even trying much for methylation, still on the gut stuff. I do take a little 1200 mg. NAC, hydroxy b12 and folinic acid as I still cannot tolerate methyls.

    Johnmac, I need some encouragement. I am really freaking out over the cost of amalgam removal. Have seen two dds who are supposedly merc free. One was an arrogant jerk, 45 mins. away and it was very difficult for me to travel there. He had the tech do a "root scaling" and without giving me a tx plan, charged me 1200 dollars us. Now I am going to a local supposedly merc free dentist but he uses no rubber dam. Just a huge ventilator and he wants 5k for the next four teeth and crowns. I have tried to write to Dr. Tom Maguire, who started the merc free listings to see if he does any low priced or charity work but his email is down. Probably from too many requests.

    When I tested for heavy metals, urine, I took 1000 mg. of DSMA and I felt incredibly energetic. The ND said this was indication that amalgam removal and chelation would help. No, actually, he had me chelating with my amalgams in...very discouraged about all this. Can you offer any ideas and encouragement?
     
  15. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Hi ndpen,

    I guess find out as much as you can in advance about what the dentist will do & what it will cost. If they won't talk in advance, probably they won't be good on the day either.

    I had a quote in Australia this year for bridge work; but thereafter they stopped replying to emails. So I went elsewhere (see below).

    Western dentistry is way too expensive; the trick is to go to a poorer country where the dentists have received Western training. I've just been to this place in Bangkok to get a bridge done & have the teeth underneath checked for amalgam. The quote for the job in Australia was $7,000+. In Bangkok it cost $2,400. The dentist had perfect English and a degree from Seattle.

    In Phnom Penh I believe it is about 30% cheaper than Bangkok. You save serious money even when travel costs are included.

    The Bangkok clinic is amalgam-free and understands the IAOMT protocol. They made a few mistakes overall, but nothing serious. A scaling there cost me $50 from memory.

    So consider a bit of travel, which anyway broadens the mind. (-:

    Few people understand much about the mechanics of chelation outside of Cutler and the FDC group experts. (I'm not one of them.) I'd generally follow their advice before that of an ND or MD or dentist.

    I don't know what getting energised from DMSA with amalgams in means. The basics are get the amalgam out, make sure there are no hidden bits (via X-Rays if needed), wait 3 months then start the ALA.

    Whether mercury is your problem is unknown. I'm not sure it was my major one. But I have no regrets about getting the amalgams out, and chelating for a couple of years - an important base covered.

    All the best,

    John
     
  16. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  17. npeden

    npeden NPeden, Monterey, CA

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    Thanks, Gondwanaland, he is in San Diego and that is hours away. But it is great he has prices. Everyone up here is so f ing expensive. The local one is not very esteemed and I had trouble driving 45 min to another one, who was also a megalomaniac. Really upset about this all.
     

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