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chelating: magnetic clay, chitosan, selenium and more

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by oh_noes, Jan 20, 2014.

  1. oh_noes

    oh_noes

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    I'm looking for non-sulforous agents for mercury, lead, cadmium and strontium chelation. To my knowledge, the essentials for chelation seem to based around sulfurous agents such as gluathione, NAC, ALA, garlic, EDTA etc which unfortunately are not an option for me

    On a daily basis, I have been taking 200-300% RDA of selenium in various forms for 7 months, in addition to 1000-5000%RDA vitamin c (as ascorbic acid, which is unavoidable as it's in several of my existing supplements), and 1-2 capsules of grape seed extract (since about a week however I've switched to powder). Four days ago I started taking molybdenum (400% RDA) RDA, but my UAA/UEE two months ago showed high levels of molybdenum (I was taking the same 400%RDA dose of it then) at the time so I'm not sure if it's something I should be doing, but I read it supported the sulfur pathway, so the benefits seemed to outweigh the cons.

    As neither chlorella nor Andy Cutler's protocol are feasible for me both due to sulfation issues and gastrointestinal ones, @ahmo kindly suggested magentic clay footbaths, chitosan, and a product called Complete Metal Cleanse. I'm wondering if anyone else has had experience with any of these?

    Chitosan is a fat binder, but I'm a little worried it may bind all the supposedly beneficial fats I take (coconut oil; olive oil; vegan EFAs; although to be fair none of them have stopped my condition from deteriorating). The CMC looks pretty decent, but imposes 6 hour restrictions (3 hours either side of taking it) on taking other supplements, which would be difficult for me as I take 30-40 supplements per day and there are simply not enough hours to fit them all in. I guess I could set my alarm to wake me up 4 hours into my sleep and take it then, but doesn't sleeping hamper the digestive process? The magnetic clay footbaths look like the best option for me, even though they're expensive, and @ahmo says she found them very useful.

    So, any thoughts?

    edit: Additionally, does anyone know of any non-sulfurous agents that cross the blood-brain barrier?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2014
  2. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    Hi @oh_noes I believe we are in the same situation. Whenever I have tried sulphur based chelating or "detox" agents in the past, I have had such agitation/anxiety & relapse in my fatigue. I have hypothesized that this is due to my sulphur sensitivity, however, I'm not sure - maybe it just speaks to an overall burden in the detox pathway…i.e. too much too fast?… What I know for sure is that I have been recovering with leaps and bounds since I have introduced a low to no sulphur diet, and have been working on Fredd's quartet (methylB12 + methylfolate + carnitine + adenosylB12).
    When I was looking to try to chelate heavy metals I had been searching & searching for a non-sulphur based chelating agent. I had asked my naturopath to help me, & she consulted with some of her colleagues who she considered experts in this area. I came up with a few more to add to your list that people claim help chelate heavy metals: zeolite, and diatomaceous earth are two that come to mind. I was seriously considering embarking on this & attempting it, but my naturopath dissuaded me saying that none of the "experts" that she consulted with suggested it & said that the only way to effectively chelate was to use DMPS or DMSA. I decided to bookshelf it at the time because the progress that I was making with the low-sulphur diet & methylation protocol was quite good. Some people claim that the methylation protocol alone can support your body's natural methods of detoxing these substance, but I personally am unsure about this.
    What my naturopath did agree on is that sweating is a legitimate way to eliminate these substances including dreaded mercury. I have been casually researching things like sauna therapy & stuff like that, and am thinking about going to hot yoga once a week.
    I see in your signature that you are awaiting the results of your genetic panel. Maybe I would wait to see if you have any CBS snps. If not, then maybe some slow, gradual chelation with sulphur based agents could work for you. I'm not sure. I'm learning here too. I would try the foot baths in the meantime, they seem like a non-evasive way to support detox. I have not tried them myself, but I know my body does like bentonite clay when I have used it internally before.
    If your levels are already high, and you are not noticing positive results of less brain fog, or increased energy, I would not supplement at such a high dose until you see if you have confirmed CBS or BHMT snps.
    All the best :) I will follow this thread with interest to see what other responses you get, thanks for posting. S
     
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  3. oh_noes

    oh_noes

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    Thanks @Star-Anise. Actually, it was your post about molybdenum (forgot the link, sorry) that convinced me to add it into my protocol.

    The only way to get me sweating would be a sauna, but I've heard it has to be a specific type of sauna lest you risk contaminating yourself with wood toxins or something like that. I don't remember exactly. Do you happen to know?
     
  4. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @oh_noes
    Ha ha.. ya undoubtedly it was a very helpful part of me dealing with the sulphur. Interestingly, since I have started Fredd's quartet, it has been something that I have dropped in an effort to simplify things. I was worried about dropping it, but so far so good. I likely will reintroduce it at a later date once I get stable on the quartet. I, for one, have never had any mineral testing so I have no confirmation that I was actually low in molybdenum, but noticed quite quickly after introducing it that I had less fatigue and brain fog. I guess if you are not noticing similar results, then perhaps to be 100% sure you would need to do some sleuthing aided by some tests. Many people monitor their sulphur processing via the urine strips, and mineral levels through hair tests. I plan on testing my mineral/heavy metal toxin burden via this method as well. I understand that hair tests have their drawbacks & I by no means have a lot of info in regards to this method. But I feel that there is a lot of scary information out there re: heavy metal burdens & am curious about getting some kind of snapshot about where I'm sitting, even if it isn't the most accurate (which I understand is the challenge test from the information I have - but I'm no expert) :)

    Yes I've heard this too, and this is one of the primary reasons I have avoided the sauna route too. In the last year my energy has improved to the point that I may be able to handle a hot yoga class, so that's why I'm going to try this route.
    I remember pre-illness, I was quite the yoga head, and would sweat in bucketloads. Then I went to India (for yoga purposes) & contracted a parasite, & then it is interesting, I recall I sweated less despite the same exercise. It is an interesting mechanism. I also tend to air on the side of hypothyroid, and in some of the information I was reading it spoke about the introduction of iodine as a detox agent, and the need to teach one's body to sweat again. I recently trialed some iodine after noticing some positive results of eating iodized salt when I was visiting a relative (I normally use the purest sea salt I can get my hands on). But this trial resulted in a huge toxic dump, & resulting weight gain (which I was able to lose right away via low-carb). Via many hours of research I settled on that possibly I was detoxing bromide. I had some weird muscle twitching, especially with my eyes, that seemed to be explained within the bromide detox info.
    Anyhow, I likely got far off topic, lol, but what I was wanting to say that as a result of that little experiment, I decided to not drink tap water any longer. Our tap water contains fluoride where I live, which apparently opposes iodine. I noticed right away that I started to feel better interestingly!
    As well, I did experiment with a few salt water flushes (drinking copious amounts of salt water). It actually seemed to help too.
    I'm at the beginning of this detox journey, so please take that into account when reading through this information, but hopefully some it is helpful :) xoxo
     
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  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Berkey water filters have an extra flouride filter. I really just came to post my most recent experience, not to contribute any answers, which I don't have. I've been pushing my boundaries re detoxxing, awaiting my diatomaceous earth, now that I've been gut healing for 2 years. I also decided to try ALA, since it's comes up so often for detoxxing. Took the smallest dose, and within a few...couple?...hours, was in excitotoxic land!. So, no, I don't need ALA, SAMe (which was my first sulfur excitotoxic esperience years ago) or any other sulfur contributions. But I'm handling 1 Tb chlorella daily. thankful for that. :lol:
     
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  6. oh_noes

    oh_noes

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    I'll cerftainly look into this diatomaceous earth thingy. @ahmo how do you know when you're experiencing excitotoxicity?

    @Star-Anise thanks for the comprehensive response! I'll have to get back to you later though as I'm going to bed now.
     
  7. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    I've taken with good results the zeolite Star-Anise mentioned. Brand name was Ultra Zeolite Liquid and I get it at Amazon. Over the years I've had chelation therapy, iv edta, and a round of DMSA and I've tried the clays and different minerals and zeolite is right up there with the best of them. Of course, we're all different, may not be for you.
    Good luck.
     
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  8. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I've taken the DE2x today, 1 tsp each. Body seems to like it. Excitotoxic for me is like a large strong coffee: bzzzzzzzzz. Whereas at times when I've added methylB12, I've had something more like euphoria, which Freddd has also described. I now see that I had a huge overload of over-excitatory things 5 years ago. This included D-ribose, might have been when I was trying SAMe or ALA, plus powdered whey for the glutathione that was going to cure me.:meh: I was oblivious. And had no clue about what my diet was doing, including sulfur. As my insomnia worsened, I got another sleeping med. After the ensuing psychotic episode, the ward psychiatrist pointed his finer at me, demanding, "Didn't you know there was amphetamine in those pills??" WTF. Anyway, this had never occured before, nor since. I stopped all those supps, never resumed. I was going to make another post, but here's a Fascinating talk by mast cell expert about inflammation in the brain and autism. Same sx as ME/CFS regarding brain fog, anxiety, irritability, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9QbZp3WcC1Q
     
  9. oh_noes

    oh_noes

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    @Star-Anise @Lou do you mean Activated Cellular Liquid Zeolite ULTRA with DHQ 30ml?
    @ahmo diverging OT a little, most people talk about this 'tired but wired' feeling with regard to excitotoxicity, but frankly it's something I've never experienced. Inumerable things were excitotoxic to me as a kid, but since getting CFS I've never experienced that feeling. It's always damp, dark, gloomy and somnolescent lol.


    edit: after reading this thread I think I'll give zeolite a miss for now. If it helps anyone else, that's fantastic, though http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/detox-questions.26114/#post-399073
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
  10. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    Sure, if you have reservations, don't take it, but I found the link describing its 'dangers' absolute bullshit. Yes, people are at risk for certain lung cancers when breathing volcanic ash, but I suggest no volcanic eruptions will accompany purchase of a bottle of Liquid zeolite. Instructions for use forego any recommendation for snorting the stuff, either.

    That it might positively influence one's pH, and be contra-indicated for certain medications because of that would actually steer me away from the prescription, rather than the natural positive health benefit.

    When researching zeolite I did find some brands were less than desirable, but the one I eventually chose was independently lab tested for an assortment of categories, including any toxic concentration of heavy metals. The brand I mentioned was safe in this regard. One other thing, it worked for me, no small trick.

    That article seemed quackwatch in its bias and misinformation, not completely unlike: Hey, you don't want to take any of that vitamin C, it's got friggin acid in it. I'll stop. Good luck.
     
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  11. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    @oh_noes ,
    I took 286% RDA of selenium for 7 months and my blood tests showed abnormally high selenium, so I cut it back to every other day. I think that may still be too much for me. Aren't you worried about toxic levels of selenium? I'm afraid I should be worried...
     
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  12. South

    South Senior Member

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    @oh_noes

    The magnetic clay foot baths didn't do a thing for me (the metals I believe I have problems with are copper and mercury). No reaction, good or bad...so I now doubt that applying the clay to external skin really reaches into the body much, for me anyway.

    Chitosan, on the other hand - I've been exploring it to chelate copper, taking it internally in capsules - I really don't do a 6 hour gap between my chitosan and other supplements, more like 4 1/2 hours: last supps of the day with a 5 pm dinner, than chitosan before bed. I figure I've absorbed at least some of the dinner nutrients by bedtime, and feel strongly enough about trying chitosan in my case, that this is the best solution I came up with.

    As for any reaction to chitosan - less brain fog and less gut bloating than without it. Not sure if that's due to chelating metals, or simply due to it absorbing candida toxins or something. (chitosan is reported to be useful for candida programs). At least it's some reaction, as opposed to the magnetic clay foot baths. :)

    I like the idea of something chelating metals out of the gut without being absorbed into the blood, as I'm just not ready to attempt chelation that does go out into the blood. My gut problems are enough to deal with right now. And from what I understand, chitosan is not absorbed out of the gut.

    I just did a quick search and found a book that discusses its use in chelating other metals, including some of the metals you mentioned:

    In the following link, scroll on that page to where a sentence starts with "In 1973, Muzarelli documented..." they are talking about its use in wastewater, but the sentence above it at least says that chitosan is safe for human use as well:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=3YmDQyVfsDkC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=-soil chitosan chelate lead -nanobeads&source=bl&ots=4Lxa0JpEn6&sig=HPGtchQyj4JiuLwrRilmzyle9Js&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6wzkUtjnDrjKsQST4oDgAg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=-soil chitosan chelate lead -nanobeads&f=false
     
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  13. oh_noes

    oh_noes

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    @Lou I see where you're coming from, and I wasn't dismissing your advice. If it seems I was calling you a liar, I wasn't.

    @Critterina I'm very worried about selenium toxicity, but I take it (perhaps foolishly) because of my hypothyroidism (which is the auto-immune form, Hashimoto's, and thus responds badly to iodine), and my other metal toxicities (it's supposed to offset them, apparently). Still, I believe @Star-Anise mentioned it increased fatigue for her, so I think I should cut down to just 100%.

    @South I'm thrilled chitosan worked for you :) The reservations I have about it, though, are that because it's primarily a fat binder it will bind the beneficial fats as well as the metals. I take coconut oil (the raw, virgin, cold pressed organic form from Tiana) for my thyroid, and try to use olive oil (also organic, and non-filtered) as much as possible. I also take various fat-based supplements. Is it simply a matter of making sure it's not taken 2 hours either side of any fats? I do appreciate the only way to test this is probably to try it, though :D
     
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  14. oh_noes

    oh_noes

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    Shameless bump.

    @Lou aww come on, don't ignore me. I know you were speaking by way of example, but I wasn't being that over-reactive. I was just saying I'll give it a miss for now, until I've managed to do further research. I'm not tryibng to undermine your own findings with it. I don't think it's unhealthy to have concerns about certain things. Furthermore, I guess it's a consequence of having autism, but I find I get spooked very easily by things.

    @South did you find the chitosan bound beneficial fats, too? Like I say, that's my only concern with it. Does taking it away from fats - i.e. take coconut oil in the morning and chitosan before bed - reduce its capacity to bind them?
     
  15. South

    South Senior Member

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    @oh_noes I had read in the past that taking something "away" from something else meant 2 or more hours. That's the only number I've had to go by.

    Not sure if you are wondering if I noticed something in myself that could be "fats being bound"? I didn't notice anything like that. I take the chitosan about 4-5 hours after my last meal of the day. Hope that helps.
     
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  16. oh_noes

    oh_noes

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    @South perfect answer, thanks! :)
     

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