slysaint
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"Free Association Narrative interviews (FANI)"; unfortunate acronym, but could be the Freudian influence?
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Chalder & Wessely - Functional(Psychogenic)Neurological disorders 6 Sep
- Thread starter slysaint
- Start date
chipmunk1
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Who invented 'Free Association' ? Sigmund Freud of course. It is Psychoanalysis. One does not gain understanding using pseudoscience.
http://sk.sagepub.com/reference/research/n182.xml
At least they admit indirectly that they are still Freudians.
And here, they appear to be looking of ways to rescue their beliefs in trauma theory by trying to show that FND sufferers that do not claim trauma are simply in denial about it!
there are only two possibilities:
You agree with them. They are right.
You deny it. You are in denial and they are right.
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Cheshire
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Let me guess.
Hum maybe the aversive experience model for FNS is not completely correct.
chipmunk1
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if there is an abusive experience 10 years ago and symptoms start today there is zero causality between these two events.
chipmunk1
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Good for her, that sounds bad. Did you challenge them on that? I can see that to do so could be problematic. Bullying is sufficient cause for anxiety, why try and shift the focus away from bullies in school being the problem?
Maybe having a past trauma increases FND 4 fold because having one means your doctor will assume it is "nonorganic". Becoming ill as a teenager is also seen as making your illness psychological as if a virus can tell your age.
I read a book about the scandal of "recovered memory syndrome" (which should make any ethical psychologist wary about uncovering hidden trauma) which said that the psychologists involved in that simply moved on to use the same techniques in other areas. Typically I can't remember the name of it, might have been by Elizabeth Loftus.
Since all this nonsense began being talked about in ME, I have played a game with myself by working out a reason for illness in everyone I meet. It turns out that you can make a "convincing" case for anyone needing an illness in their life. Wanting an "excuse to fail" from a decent job or having to make an acceptable inner excuse for being stuck in a rotten job covers most things but you can be creative too. It's easy to make up stories, that's why you need proof
I read a book about the scandal of "recovered memory syndrome" (which should make any ethical psychologist wary about uncovering hidden trauma) which said that the psychologists involved in that simply moved on to use the same techniques in other areas. Typically I can't remember the name of it, might have been by Elizabeth Loftus.
Since all this nonsense began being talked about in ME, I have played a game with myself by working out a reason for illness in everyone I meet. It turns out that you can make a "convincing" case for anyone needing an illness in their life. Wanting an "excuse to fail" from a decent job or having to make an acceptable inner excuse for being stuck in a rotten job covers most things but you can be creative too. It's easy to make up stories, that's why you need proof
Cheshire
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A poster that shows Alexithymia rates are higher in PNES (psychogenic non-Epileptic Seizures) than in healthy controls, but do not differ with Epileptic patients.
chipmunk1
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Maybe having a past trauma increases FND 4 fold because having one means your doctor will assume it is "nonorganic". Becoming ill as a teenager is also seen as making your illness psychological as if a virus can tell your age.
I read a book about the scandal of "recovered memory syndrome" (which should make any ethical psychologist wary about uncovering hidden trauma) which said that the psychologists involved in that simply moved on to use the same techniques in other areas. Typically I can't remember the name of it, might have been by Elizabeth Loftus.
Since all this nonsense began being talked about in ME, I have played a game with myself by working out a reason for illness in everyone I meet. It turns out that you can make a "convincing" case for anyone needing an illness in their life. Wanting an "excuse to fail" from a decent job or having to make an acceptable inner excuse for being stuck in a rotten job covers most things but you can be creative too. It's easy to make up stories, that's why you need proof
if you are unemployed you are ill because you don't work
if you are employed you are ill because you don't want to go to work
if you are unmarried you are ill because you are single
if you are married you are ill because your marriage is not happy
if you think your marriage is happy you are in denial
if you are poor you are ill because you lack money
if you are rich you are ill because you are bored
if you are perfectly happy you had a miserable childhood
if you had a wonderful childhood you suppressed the negative memories
to be continued...
chipmunk1
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Cheshire
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The patient as a "consciously or preconsciously complicit"...
Because they would actually have to do something about it.
5 other kids in same yeargroup have required specialist counselling over past 4 years- shifting focus onto " supporting the child" means you don't t deal with the confrontational issue of dealing with bullies. Teachers don' t like that.
We went privately for a few sessions and it was a different world. Until children' s mental health has something akin to " Maggie' s centres" that cancer has we are just promoting harm
Similar arguments for ACE s - adverse childhood events. If you have 4 more then seemingly you' ll come a cropper with cancer/ chronic illness/ early death/ lack of coping abilities...Maybe having a past trauma increases FND 4 fold because having one means your doctor will assume it is "nonorganic". Becoming ill as a teenager is also seen as making your illness psychological as if a virus can tell your age.
I read a book about the scandal of "recovered memory syndrome" (which should make any ethical psychologist wary about uncovering hidden trauma) which said that the psychologists involved in that simply moved on to use the same techniques in other areas. Typically I can't remember the name of it, might have been by Elizabeth Loftus.
Since all this nonsense began being talked about in ME, I have played a game with myself by working out a reason for illness in everyone I meet. It turns out that you can make a "convincing" case for anyone needing an illness in their life. Wanting an "excuse to fail" from a decent job or having to make an acceptable inner excuse for being stuck in a rotten job covers most things but you can be creative too. It's easy to make up stories, that's why you need proof
Don' t get me wrong, not being able to deal with issues will have impacts. Stress is a huge epigenetic modulator. But blanket statements do noone any good
Snowdrop
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Maybe having a past trauma increases FND 4 fold because having one means your doctor will assume it is "nonorganic". Becoming ill as a teenager is also seen as making your illness psychological as if a virus can tell your age.
I read a book about the scandal of "recovered memory syndrome" (which should make any ethical psychologist wary about uncovering hidden trauma) which said that the psychologists involved in that simply moved on to use the same techniques in other areas. Typically I can't remember the name of it, might have been by Elizabeth Loftus.
Since all this nonsense began being talked about in ME, I have played a game with myself by working out a reason for illness in everyone I meet. It turns out that you can make a "convincing" case for anyone needing an illness in their life. Wanting an "excuse to fail" from a decent job or having to make an acceptable inner excuse for being stuck in a rotten job covers most things but you can be creative too. It's easy to make up stories, that's why you need proof
Elizabeth Loftus is certainly a name to associate with that but perhaps you are thinking of this: https://psmag.com/social-justice/dangerous-idea-mental-health-93325
Woolie
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Yea, there tend to be no psychological differences between FND and non-FND if you use a control group that has similar physical limitations.
And if you don't, all you're really measuring is the impact of physical disability on mental health.
Its actually a surpise they didn't get a difference in alexithymia scores between these two groups, because the TAS-20, the most commonly used self-report scale to measure alexithymia, actually includes two items about puzzling/unexplained symptoms.
I found the book "Try to Remember: Psychiatry's Clash Over Meaning, Memory, and Mind" by Paul R. McHugh. Not worth buying but an interesting read. It talks about recovered memories and the sheer confidence in these psychiatrists that they were right and that their methods needed no proof they were accurate beyond their own assertions. They never saw the need to check for any proof of sexual abuse in childhood beyond the "memories" they had induced under hypnosis or by continually following "clues" in what their patients said.
Many of them saw signs of abuse in depression or anxiety and probed until they found what they were looking for. The poor patients were now left with horrifying false memories of abuse, lost their support system as they were now estranged from their parents and often still had the depression they started with. The only upside for the patient was that it was no longer their fault (when only the psychiatrists were saying that) and now their lives had been ruined by the criminal behaviour of someone they had thought loved them.
Off topic, but I did volunteer work with adult sexual abuse survivors for a little while when my health was better and their problem was they couldn't forget what had happened to them. They also generally had a child's outlook on what had happened to them, they were afraid of damaging the family, or hurting anyone, were ambivalent to the abuser. The recovered memory people by contrast reacted as adults. They confronted the abusers and took them to court.
After a while, in some of these groups, a hierarchy developed where if you remembered what had happened then it could not have been very bad.
Looking for child abuse in physical illness seems to be the same thing in new clothes, with the same certainty and arrogance and the same lack of any data or any need for corroboration. Very worrying.
Many of them saw signs of abuse in depression or anxiety and probed until they found what they were looking for. The poor patients were now left with horrifying false memories of abuse, lost their support system as they were now estranged from their parents and often still had the depression they started with. The only upside for the patient was that it was no longer their fault (when only the psychiatrists were saying that) and now their lives had been ruined by the criminal behaviour of someone they had thought loved them.
Off topic, but I did volunteer work with adult sexual abuse survivors for a little while when my health was better and their problem was they couldn't forget what had happened to them. They also generally had a child's outlook on what had happened to them, they were afraid of damaging the family, or hurting anyone, were ambivalent to the abuser. The recovered memory people by contrast reacted as adults. They confronted the abusers and took them to court.
After a while, in some of these groups, a hierarchy developed where if you remembered what had happened then it could not have been very bad.
Looking for child abuse in physical illness seems to be the same thing in new clothes, with the same certainty and arrogance and the same lack of any data or any need for corroboration. Very worrying.
Looking for that book got me going through my pile and I came across this
"The Causes of Epilepsy: Common and Uncommon Causes in Adults and Children" 2011 by Cambridge University Press
edited by
Simon D. Shorvon MA MD FRCP
Professor in Clinical Neurology, UCL Institute of Neurology, University College London;
Consultant Neurologist, National Hospital for Neurology and Neurosurgery, London, UK
Frederick Andermann OC MD FRCPC
Professor, Departments of Neurology and Neurosurgery and Pediatrics, McGill University;
Director, Epilepsy Service, Montreal Neurological Institute and Hospital, Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Renzo Guerrini MD
Professor of Child Neurology and Psychiatry, University of Florence;
Director, Pediatric Neurology Unit and Laboratories, Children’s Hospital A. Meyer, Florence, Italy
The interesting thing is there is no mention at all of psychogenic epilepsy!
So it looks as if believers in FND may be a specific school of thought or things have gone seriously downhill.
"The Causes of Epilepsy: Common and Uncommon Causes in Adults and Children" 2011 by Cambridge University Press
edited by
Simon D. Shorvon MA MD FRCP
Professor in Clinical Neurology, UCL Institute of Neurology, University College London;
Consultant Neurologist, National Hospital for Neurology and Neurosurgery, London, UK
Frederick Andermann OC MD FRCPC
Professor, Departments of Neurology and Neurosurgery and Pediatrics, McGill University;
Director, Epilepsy Service, Montreal Neurological Institute and Hospital, Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Renzo Guerrini MD
Professor of Child Neurology and Psychiatry, University of Florence;
Director, Pediatric Neurology Unit and Laboratories, Children’s Hospital A. Meyer, Florence, Italy
The interesting thing is there is no mention at all of psychogenic epilepsy!
So it looks as if believers in FND may be a specific school of thought or things have gone seriously downhill.
Large Donner
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Thats called non falsifiable. They have bascially admitted that a claimed abusive experience cannot be shown to cause such symptoms. The date is insignificant. If it cant be shown to explain why it starts ten years later when can it be show to explain when it starts, please give us a date or time projection.
They cannot by their own admittance make even a correlation argument to the abusive event and the symptoms starting.
If you cant make a correlation argument the causative argument steps are null and void automatically.
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