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CFS severity driven by leptin

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by MeSci, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    High insulin is thought to drive insulin resistance. Why not the same with leptin? Yet if our levels are not so high on average, but spike during PEM etc., its this spike that might be doing damage, not the average leptin level.
     
    rosie26, NK17 and heapsreal like this.
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    What I do myself is spend 60 days, once each year in the summer, on a juice and vegetables fast, where I eat only fruit juices/smoothies, plus some raw vegetable salads, consuming only around 700 kilocalories in total each day (the normal daily intake for a man is 2200 kilocalories).

    By doing this I find I rapidly lose around 12 kg (= 26 pounds = nearly 2 stone) over the 60 day period, and my belly fat mostly disappears over these 60 days. I also feel better and a little more energetic on this juice/raw vegetable diet, ie, my ME/CFS symptoms improve slightly (it's probably because this juice and vegetable diet is also an anti-inflammatory diet that it benefits my ME/CFS).

    However, over the rest of the year, even though I do not eat that much, the weight is slowly put back on to my belly area again. So this means I have to repeat my 60 day fast again next year. This juice and vegetables fast is a little hard going only in the first week, but after that you quickly adapt to it, and I find I don't miss the meat and carbs at all.


    I have been looking around for supplements or drugs that might stop or reduce the accumulation of belly fat. So far, I have only come across these:

    Metformin, which if you take daily can reduce any belly fat caused by insulin resistance (since metformin reduces insulin resistance). But this I guess will only work if you have insulin resistance-induced central obesity.

    Chromium picolinate, which combats insulin resistance. Again, I presume this will only work if you have insulin resistance-induced central obesity.

    • African mango (Irvingia gabonensis), which is thought may combat leptin resistance.

    • HIgh cortisol has been linked to putting on belly fat, so if you are someone with elevated cortisol, you might prevent belly fat accumulation if you take some cortisol lowering supplements like phosphatidylserine.

    Human growth hormone injections (very expensive) burn off belly fat.

    There may be other mechanisms that cause accumulation of abdominal fat, but so far I have only come across the insulin, leptin, cortisol, and growth hormone pathways.


    I have not, however, actually experimented with taking the above drugs and supplements for an extended period, to see if they do actually ward off the belly fat.

    Rather, I just burn off that unsightly belly bulge each year with a 60 day fruit juice and vegetables fast.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2014
    merylg likes this.
  3. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Vandyl sulphate as well as lipoic acid, hca/hydrocitric acid are a few more that can help with insulin resistance, seems to run parallel with leptin.

    The other finding with leptin sensitivity is good dopamine levels especially in the morning when one wakes up which can help with appropriate cortisol levels and circadian rthyms which also play a part in this insulin/leptin sensitivity. Bromocriptine in the last few years has been shown to improve insulin/leptin sensitivity, bromo is a dopamine agonist. Dopa macuna is a herbal supp that can increase dopamine. Cycloset is an immediate release bromocriptine thats now approved for type 2 diabetics.
     
    Sing and Hip like this.
  4. Marco

    Marco Old blackguard

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    Hi Alex

    I had similar thoughts :

    Read more: The Energy Disorders: Diabetes, ME/CFS and FM – Can Diabetes Tell Us Anything About Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia? http://www.cortjohnson.org/blog/201...ell-us-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-fibromyalgia/
     
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  5. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I have dried vanadium sulphate and chromium picolinate, and they do work a little. I am currently on metformin.
     
    NK17 likes this.
  6. Nielk

    Nielk

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    @Hip - Thank you for the detailed, informative reply. It was very interesting to me. I have been gaining a lot of weight, especially around the belly lately - even with dieting. I have been diagnosed with diabetes over a month ago and have started on Metformin. Since on the metformin, I have lost about 7 lbs, which is huge for me. The specialized nutritionist also put me on a diet for diabetes but I think I am not eating less calories, just differently like more often - smaller meals. I have to check my blood glucose twice every day to make sure that I stay within the limits. I couldn't understand why I need to check for the low levels since my problem is high glucose but, my doctor explained that it is not only the high glucose that's the problem but the wide fluctuations. (If I understood correctly)
    I wonder if there is a corelation between uncontrolled glucose and uncontrolled leptin.

    When I was rapidly gaining this weight, I went to an endocrinologist who checked my cortisol with 24 hour urine test( to rule out cushing's). My results came back at the very low end.

    I'm hoping that the metformin will help me lose more.
     
    Hip likes this.
  7. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I had weight problems throughout my ME - first too low and then too high, until a couple of years ago when I changed my diet and added supplements. Details in my profile.

    I have not exercised other than the exertion that I have to do to survive and make ends meet - because I have ME - and exertion beyond fatigue causes damage and reduces the chances of recovery.

    But the fat has fallen off effortlessly and muscle has redeveloped, and symptoms have improved generally and significantly (see profile).
     
    Sing and heapsreal like this.
  8. anniekim

    anniekim Senior Member

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    Could potential leptin resistance explain an increased appetite? I am always hungry. I have tried paleo but was even more hungry so just try and eat with a balance of carbs, protein and a bit of fat with each meal. The constant hunger and being bedridden is piling on the weight
     
  9. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    appettite suppression from low carb diets etc comes from the body producing ketones as an alternative energy source to glucose. For some of us it takes along time as in days to weeks before we start producing enough ketones. Generally, healthy people start producing ketones after 2 days with no carbs. if we somewhere along the line eat too many carbs our body stops producing ketones and we have to again slash carbs and wait for ketones to be produced which takes time. Im thinking this could be a reason for not getting the appettite suppression from it.

    theres a few things that can also be involved eg if ones cortisol is too low than this can effect the way our body metabolizes food for energy. its complicated and no black and white answers, i think we just have to trial different carb intakes as well as different supps/meds to improve insulin/leptin sensitivity and mitochondrial function.

    I have slashed my carb intake to the bone the last few weeks and have lost bugger all, so im still searching. For me i think i have to carefully start increasing my activity without causing pem and relapses??? I always take lipoic acid and recently added chromuim, reintroduced acetyl carnitine and pregnenolone. Its the last couple of months i have put 10kg on but my cfs symptoms are good, so i dont know.

    I would like to improve my low free testosterone, have tried testosterone creams which havent done much and wanted to do injections but my doc wasnt interested, but thats australia and its strange control of some medical treatments. Optimal testosterone can play a big part in insulin sensitivity. I think theres a push by big pharma to try and phase out testosterone injections and bring testosterone creams and gels to the fron of mainstream medicine, problem is that many guys are finding these transdermal treatments dont work(for long anyway).

    Wouldnt it be good if it was a calories in versus calories out??
     
  10. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I thought that the lack of hunger on low-carb was mainly because you no longer have the extreme blood-glucose spikes and troughs that come from too much carb. Low blood glucose is one of the things that causes hunger, and when you consume sugars or quickly-digestible carbs, your blood glucose initially goes very high (incidentally putting a strain on the body's ability to produce enough insulin and/or increasing the risk of insulin resistance and eventually diabetes), then plummets. The trough will tend to make you very hungry. It has sometimes been called 'Chinese restaurant syndrome' due to the high carb content of typical Chinese restaurant meals (in the UK at least).
     
  11. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Agree with you there too. I think there's a few things working against us.
     
  12. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Really, I thought that was due to MSG.
     
  13. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Oh, OK - a quick search says you are right. I was trying to use a concise expression for the common observation that a short time after having a Chinese meal you want another one!
     
  14. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    Clearly you don't have in-laws from the US rural South if you think a Chinese restaurant meal is carb loaded. I can't say I've felt hungry shortly after their carb and fat-laden meals, but that might just be because of the sheer volume of food they practically shove down my throat. ;)
     
    Valentijn likes this.
  15. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I guessed that the meals might be different in different countries, hence my reference to the UK in my earlier message.

    Our Chinese meals are quite greasy but they don't fill us up for long!
     
  16. anniekim

    anniekim Senior Member

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    Thanks Heapsreal. As well as feeling hungry on paleo/trying going into ketosis it did get a bit easier after about 2 weeks appetite wise, my ME symptoms got so much worse. I know when the body converts from burning glucose to fat there will be a window of adjustment and even healthy people may feel a bit crummy but it just got worse and worse for me, especially the pain and after three weeks I had to give up

    Regarding low carb getting rid of the extreme blood sugar spikes which then result in very low sugar causing hunger, what I don't understand with this is ok if you eat purely carb in a single sitting/meal I can see this happen but if carb is balanced out with some fat and protein the blood sugar spikes should not be too high.

    I'm also still wondering whether leptin resistance could account for struggling to feel satiated
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2014
  17. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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    Going on twenty years ago when I was slowly falling over the cliff health wise, with serious cognitive, fatigue and pain issues, I lost my appetite too. This frightened me as, if I had only eaten what I felt like then, I'd have eaten only about half what I needed to maintain my weight, which was normal then. Having had two frightening brushes with anorexia in the past before ME, I knew that it was possible for me to fall into this too.

    If you have ever had it, you'd understand how it is like a state of possession, like entering into an increasingly powerful magnetic force field. When I say "brushes", I mean that I did get way too thin and felt this state of possession, but each time I was able to climb back out of it.

    So, when I lost my appetite in the initial years with ME onset, I got frightened. I forced myself to eat more than I wanted each day, more even than I needed. I pushed my body to its upper weight, meaning I was actually carrying some fat. After this, my appetite seemed to adjust to a more normal one in keeping with my physical needs.

    I would definitely say that a very strange loss of appetite came alongside the advent of ME symptoms in my case. I was taking no medications at all then so the picture wasn't blurred by "outside agents".
     
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  18. Grigor

    Grigor

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    Uh lots of text ;-) too wasted to read it all.

    One thing though is I can only take a certain amount of Chromium Picolinate. If I take about a 100 mcg I crash hardcore. Can't do anything anymore.
    Happens with some other supplements like Alpha Lipoic Acid, Tyrosine and Carnitine. But I do need a little bit of Chromium cause I get too crazy hungry otherwise and will crash also when I don't take it. So.

    But now with the leptin we get to another part. Maybe I do have resistance there too?
    I guess there is no harm in trying out the African Mango.
    Wonder if my GP ever tested my Leptin.

    Taking Leptin supplements is probably not the best solution?
     
  19. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I would guess not re oral supplementation, as it is a protein and will be mostly or completely broken down by stomach acid before it gets to where you need it. Injection, maybe, but maybe not available yet. Also, per this page, it seems that problems are sometimes due not to a lack of leptin but to insensitivity to it.
     
  20. Grigor

    Grigor

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    Right for the resistance the African Mango would maybe help ?? I am about to buy it and give it a try
     

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