1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
New Exercise Study Brings Both Illumination and Questions
Simon McGrath looks at new objective evidence of abnormal response to exercise in ME/CFS patients, and the questions that researchers are still trying to answer ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

CFS/ME as a Liver issue

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by undcvr, Aug 5, 2012.

  1. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

    Messages:
    764
    Likes:
    494
    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    I am fast approaching the need for that liver biopsy, which would be informative, but not without risk as you say.
     
  2. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    797
    Likes:
    133
    NYC
    I have to agree with this. From my experience with CFS over the last 20 years and trying what works and what does not up to my present recovery, I keep going back to the liver, its detoxing issues and B vitamins. I will write more about this when I have the time, I have so much to say about it but all I know rite now is that high doses of B6, Zinc and Omega 3 oils together have really given me my life back. All this while I constantly detox or try to get my liver detox engine to run effectively again. CFS is not an immune issue at all, it really isn't. It's a liver issue.
     
  3. GracieJ

    GracieJ Senior Member

    Messages:
    500
    Likes:
    853
    Utah
    I have to agree that the liver plays a huge role in ME/CFS. It may not be the only piece, it may be much like the blind men and the elephant, after all. But it has to be a huge piece. The more I detox and do things for my liver health, the better I feel and function. I've regained about 75% function with detoxing and nutrition and no prescription meds for the liver to process. Still have a ways to go with OTC things, for which I'm concerned, but have to survive daily with a job. I filter water, filter air, work a job where there are as few environmental toxins about as possible...

    Still struggle with MCS, but incidentally, it showed up and got worse AFTER function improved, which to me points to toxic load still ongoing and on its way out more than anything, most likely digging into the deepest layers finally. I break out into the oddest rashes regularly. Everything points to detoxing, which points to liver function. I'm always cracking jokes about how I baby and care for my liver so I can keep healthy function my entire life! Definitely a huge and important part of the picture.
     
    merylg likes this.
  4. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    797
    Likes:
    133
    NYC
    In my opinion detox really is the basis of everything alternative medicine and unlike the blind men i think it is the one-eyed king in the land of the blind. Regardless of what other symptoms show up along the way the point is to keep detoxing. Keep showing/teaching the body what a better state without toxins is like and how those toxins shud be removed as quickly as possible. No holding on to them where ever in the body just to cause problems later on. Many pple with lifelong CFS need to show the body how it is done becos the body has no basis to compare such a healthy state to at all. It has picked up and held on to toxins for as long as it can remember and does not know how release it. The trick is to create a 'safe space' for the body to let it know that it is ok to let go of these toxins and that letting it out of the body is not a bad thing.
     
  5. alwayshopeful

    alwayshopeful

    Messages:
    74
    Likes:
    32
     
    merylg and vli like this.
  6. vli

    vli

    Messages:
    2,031
    Likes:
    2,145
    CA
    Yes, please. I think I've asked undcvr abt this, but essentially: isn't it such a catch-22 bc the weaker we are the more we need to detox and yet the less likely we'll be able to tolerate the detox process?
     
    merylg likes this.
  7. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    7,393
    Likes:
    4,783
    australia (brisbane)
    I think we still need to go after the infections, maybe a poor detox process has let them in but i think once there in then we need to treat these infections more directly while looking after the liver.
     
    merylg and vli like this.
  8. Old Salt

    Old Salt Rowing the boat

    Messages:
    70
    Likes:
    19
    S/W Pa.
     
  9. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

    Messages:
    2,684
    Likes:
    2,016
    Midwest, USA
    My local paper's ask the doctor column recently was on non-alcoholic fatty liver (NAFL). It said that NAFL can be caused by obesity and diabetes. I don’t see either of these problems being discussed much here. Low blood sugar is more common.

    It also said that there is some evidence that the type of bacteria in our gut may influence whether we get NAFL. I wonder if this would be more of a factor for us.

    The treatment it recommended was weight loss. At my last doctor’s visit it came up that I had tried to lose weight with limited success. My dr. immediately argued with me about why I had done that. I absolutely am not underweight or anorexic. I lost 5% of my weight in 3 months, so not an extreme diet. Arguing with a person with NAFL about losing weight just shows how little MDs know about diet and nutrition.

    The article did say that research on fatty liver disease is intense. Maybe they will accidentally include some people with ME.
     
    merylg likes this.
  10. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    797
    Likes:
    133
    NYC
    @heaps: It is true that the weaker you are the more prone you are to the side effects of detoxing but at the same time you need to detox more if you are weak. My only suggestion is to bite the bullet and do it. The process will be painful and awful to go through but you will come of the other side of the tunnel feeling better and while in the tunnel, "go towards the lite !"

    The answer is and will always be BILE. Bile is the only substance in the body that will be able to remove oil soluble toxins from the body and those are the toxins that cause cfs symptoms. Water soluble toxins are removed in the urine. To keep eating your greens, not trying to sound sanctimonious but they are really what stimulates our body to make bile, the bitter compounds in them.
     
    merylg likes this.
  11. atoska

    atoska

    Messages:
    54
    Likes:
    19
    rome italy
    Hello undcvr! Your theory is very interesting. Thank you for posting it and trying to help all of us. I am very happy to hear that you are recovering!! marvelous words!! hehe
    I have a friend with fibro who says that she is also "curing" her self with liver flushes.. she doesn't know about her phase 1 or 2, and she isn't taking grapefruit juice... but still... there has to be a relation!
    Do you think that by cleaning your liver and colon you could feel better? And maybe make your liver phase 1 and 2 start working normal again?
    Have you tried liver flushing?
    I had the phase 1 and phase 2 liver detox test some years ago. I have, like you say, phase 1 fast and phase 2 normal. My phase 1 is just slightly faster, but that is maybe the reason I don't have severe cfs...
    Thanks for posting your theory! I was really thinking about the liver lately and reading your posts gave me the last "push" I needed to start addressing it!! :)
     
  12. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    797
    Likes:
    133
    NYC
    I myself had nvr had my liver fase 1 and 2 checked either. It's very big in alternative medicine but mainstream medicine does not use it. But all doctors are now very aware of grapefruit's ability to slow liver enzymes and keep certain drugs longer in the blood than normal. I also am not taking grapefruit juice, it was just too expensive and alot of sugar. I just switched to a bioflavonoid supplement with high amounts of Vit C as well.

    B6 and B vitamin complex does not particularly slow or speed up liver fase 1 or 2 either. At least not anywhere that I have read so far but they do support all parts of liver function especially B6.

    My own personal theory as to why B6 and Zinc work so well is that they support enzyme systems and production in the body. B6 itself is involved in over 200. For pple with CFS either the thyroid has shut down or the immune system is attacking it. We end up having a chronically low body temperature that enzymes cannot work at. Hi doses of B6 n Zn help push these processes through.

    I have taken thryroid glandular supplements before for T3 not T4 and also kelp for Iodine. It has worked for me at some point in the past before.
     
  13. atoska

    atoska

    Messages:
    54
    Likes:
    19
    rome italy
    mmm.. interesting.. i have a lot to study! I think in some blood tests my Zinc levels were low..
    What do you think about liver flushing?
    I have been taking B complex vitamins for a long time.. with no improvement.. maybe i need to try B6 and Zinc together..
     
  14. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    797
    Likes:
    133
    NYC
    I suggest u keep taking the B vites but add B6 P5P to it. Buy it from the good brand and try taking 50mg 2X daily. Take Zinc at 50mg a day, elemental Zn not when as calculated together with its compound.
     
  15. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    797
    Likes:
    133
    NYC
    atoska I don't know what a liver flush is and I have nvr done it but if it is about getting your liver and gallbladder to release as much bile as it possibly can each time then I have been doing that for awhile now.
     
  16. alwayshopeful

    alwayshopeful

    Messages:
    74
    Likes:
    32

    Someone tell me how to go about a liver flush? What do you take? I am clueless
     
  17. atoska

    atoska

    Messages:
    54
    Likes:
    19
    rome italy
    undcvr.. thanks for your tips! I will definetly add zinc and b6 to my list of daily supplements! :)
    Liver flushes release bile ducts of parasites and gall stones. So yeah.. it should fit with your theory! I'm going to study it a little more and try it after christmas!
    alwayshopeful there is a whole protocol about liver flushing. It's a seven day protocol, the last day you take epsom salts and do the flush. Research Hulda Clark on google.. she is the main doctor who started with this. There have been others like Andreas Moritz. If you do it, you have to study a little before doing it. My friend says she is feeling better than ever! I have a couple links, but they are in spanish.. if you don't find any info.. i can do a search for you!!
     
  18. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    797
    Likes:
    133
    NYC
    It's not for 7 days, a month or a year. It's for a lifetime.
     
  19. atoska

    atoska

    Messages:
    54
    Likes:
    19
    rome italy
    well.. yes, everything you change to fix your cfs is something that you should change for life if you feel it is helping.
    I meant that the liver flush lasts 7 days. You can do it as many times as you want, but you shouldn't do one every week. Maybe once a month. And when you have expelled everything, you can stop. And to keep up with the cleanse, do the 7 day protocol like once or twice a year.
    But the protocol is not only the liver flush thing, it includes other things that yes, you should take and do for life.
     
  20. GracieJ

    GracieJ Senior Member

    Messages:
    500
    Likes:
    853
    Utah
    alwayshopeful
    vli

    My favorite liver detox is the same lemonade that is used for a three-day liver cleanse. I've never been able to go more than a couple of hours on it before my blood sugar drops, so never could do the full program. So, instead, I mix up the lemonade first thing in the morning and drink it on an empty stomach and wait for a while before eating anything else. Seems to work well, though not as fast or dramatic as the three-day cleanse is supposed to be. I will use lemonade every morning several days in a row. (Juice of one lemon, a tablespoon of maple syrup, filtered water, and a pinch of cayenne pepper, all to taste.)

    I also occasionally use liver-friendly herbs like dandelion or milk thistle for a week or so.

    I'm a firm believer in not causing problems in the first place, and one of the biggest offenders in our culture is lotions and cosmetics. If you put it on your skin, it goes in the blood stream without the benefit of digestive juices breaking down substances. The liver has to deal with the components in the lotion. If you wouldn't eat it, don't put it on your body. The liver is way ahead just with that one simple rule.

    There was an article in a massage therapy trade magazine years ago that talked about a chronic fatigue syndrome-like condition developing among massage therapists who habitually used lotion on their clients, and the role the liver was playing in the condition. I was not yet officially diagnosed with ME/CFS when that came out, but you can believe that I immediately switched to food-grade oil for all my clients -- and for me!
     
    Wayne likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page