merylg
Senior Member
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- 841
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- Sydney, NSW, Australia
I am fast approaching the need for that liver biopsy, which would be informative, but not without risk as you say.
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I used to believe gut permeability (leaky gut) was the major issue but know I think it's more a liver detox issue, or rather the liver not detoxing, due to damage in the same way the gut is damaged, including the immune system that resides there-in. A genetic propensity is most likely a requirement, as well as a triggering event. Alex?
I have to agree that the liver plays a huge role in ME/CFS. It may not be the only piece, it may be much like the blind men and the elephant, after all. But it has to be a huge piece. The more I detox and do things for my liver health, the better I feel and function. I've regained about 75% function with detoxing and nutrition and no prescription meds for the liver to process. Still have a ways to go with OTC things, for which I'm concerned, but have to survive daily with a job. I filter water, filter air, work a job where there are as few environmental toxins about as possible...
Can I ask, what is your particular regimen for liver detox? Hard for me to find one that doesn't make things worse
I think we still need to go after the infections, maybe a poor detox process has let them in but i think once there in then we need to treat these infections more directly while looking after the liver.Yes, please. I think I've asked undcvr abt this, but essentially: isn't it such a catch-22 bc the weaker we are the more we need to detox and yet the less likely we'll be able to tolerate the detox process?
Hi Old Salt, I think there might be genetic risk factors, but I am unsure of this. Its probable, from my current perspective, that some of us might have genetic issues, while others have aquired issues. My best guess is that its a combination of factors that are responsible, and that combination might vary person to person.
I view blood bacterial toxins like LPS the same way I view excess salicylates getting into the blood. Salicylates should be neutralized by gut bacteria somewhat, and in the case of LPS its either shedding or death of bacteria that releases it.
Then it has to go through the gut wall. The gut wall is semipermiable naturally to allow absorption of nutrients. Note we are talking molecules not whole bacteria here. The gut has a sizeable immune capacity. It should neutralize both toxins and salicylates. If that fails it makes it to the blood. The blood then takes it via the portal vein to the liver. The liver is a massive immunological filter. Layer after layer of immune cells that are supposed to detox the blood so that toxic substances do not make it into the general circulation. For it to get into the blood then both the gut immune system and the liver have to be functioning sub par, but that is more likely if there is too much LPS being released into the blood stream.
I hope to post a blog on this three or four blogs from now. The next three are political, then I am planning to return to biochemistry, looking at bacterial toxins and the gut immune system.
To function correctly the immune cells have to be healthy. They need various substrates including glutathione. They require that they not be receiving immune signals which tell them to stop working, and require normal mitochondrial function. Furthermore for any individual toxin it requires the right form of the detox and associated enzymes to be there for optimal effect. That is where the genetics comes in. If your enzyme forms (called isoforms) are not optimal for a given toxin, then more will get through. Generally though there is a trade-off in that they are better adapted to other toxins.
We know we have immune issues. We know that NK cells have substandard function. I wonder what the result would be if we started investigating liver biopsies? Not a pleasant non-invasive procedure, but we might learn something.
The final stage of defence is in the tissues. For salicylates that defence is often glutathione. For LPS I am still unsure. I do know that selenium is associated with improved tolerance, but I do not know that we really understand the mechanism (presuming this association is causally linked, which it might not be). I can speculate, link it back to glutathione, but I want to do more investigation of this first and I am busy writing up political stuff.
So I don't think genetics is an absolute requirement, but I am fairly sure it can increase risk, and in some cases may severely increase risk. I also think it takes multiple failures in the immune system to see a problem. So, are there multiple events causing it, and it only occurs when these are combined? Or is there a single underlying cause somewhere that starts all these processes off? That cause could of course be genetic.
Bye, Alex
Hi Old Salt, I think there might be genetic risk factors, but I am unsure of this. Its probable, from my current perspective, that some of us might have genetic issues, while others have aquired issues. My best guess is that its a combination of factors that are responsible, and that combination might vary person to person.
I view blood bacterial toxins like LPS the same way I view excess salicylates getting into the blood. Salicylates should be neutralized by gut bacteria somewhat, and in the case of LPS its either shedding or death of bacteria that releases it.
Then it has to go through the gut wall. The gut wall is semipermiable naturally to allow absorption of nutrients. Note we are talking molecules not whole bacteria here. The gut has a sizeable immune capacity. It should neutralize both toxins and salicylates. If that fails it makes it to the blood. The blood then takes it via the portal vein to the liver. The liver is a massive immunological filter. Layer after layer of immune cells that are supposed to detox the blood so that toxic substances do not make it into the general circulation. For it to get into the blood then both the gut immune system and the liver have to be functioning sub par, but that is more likely if there is too much LPS being released into the blood stream.
I hope to post a blog on this three or four blogs from now. The next three are political, then I am planning to return to biochemistry, looking at bacterial toxins and the gut immune system.
To function correctly the immune cells have to be healthy. They need various substrates including glutathione. They require that they not be receiving immune signals which tell them to stop working, and require normal mitochondrial function. Furthermore for any individual toxin it requires the right form of the detox and associated enzymes to be there for optimal effect. That is where the genetics comes in. If your enzyme forms (called isoforms) are not optimal for a given toxin, then more will get through. Generally though there is a trade-off in that they are better adapted to other toxins.
We know we have immune issues. We know that NK cells have substandard function. I wonder what the result would be if we started investigating liver biopsies? Not a pleasant non-invasive procedure, but we might learn something.
The final stage of defence is in the tissues. For salicylates that defence is often glutathione. For LPS I am still unsure. I do know that selenium is associated with improved tolerance, but I do not know that we really understand the mechanism (presuming this association is causally linked, which it might not be). I can speculate, link it back to glutathione, but I want to do more investigation of this first and I am busy writing up political stuff.
So I don't think genetics is an absolute requirement, but I am fairly sure it can increase risk, and in some cases may severely increase risk. I also think it takes multiple failures in the immune system to see a problem. So, are there multiple events causing it, and it only occurs when these are combined? Or is there a single underlying cause somewhere that starts all these processes off? That cause could of course be genetic.
Bye, Alex
atoska I don't know what a liver flush is and I have nvr done it but if it is about getting your liver and gallbladder to release as much bile as it possibly can each time then I have been doing that for awhile now.