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CFS/ME as a Liver issue

undcvr

Senior Member
Messages
822
Location
NYC
I used to believe gut permeability (leaky gut) was the major issue but know I think it's more a liver detox issue, or rather the liver not detoxing, due to damage in the same way the gut is damaged, including the immune system that resides there-in. A genetic propensity is most likely a requirement, as well as a triggering event. Alex?

I have to agree with this. From my experience with CFS over the last 20 years and trying what works and what does not up to my present recovery, I keep going back to the liver, its detoxing issues and B vitamins. I will write more about this when I have the time, I have so much to say about it but all I know rite now is that high doses of B6, Zinc and Omega 3 oils together have really given me my life back. All this while I constantly detox or try to get my liver detox engine to run effectively again. CFS is not an immune issue at all, it really isn't. It's a liver issue.
 

GracieJ

Senior Member
Messages
772
Location
Utah
I have to agree that the liver plays a huge role in ME/CFS. It may not be the only piece, it may be much like the blind men and the elephant, after all. But it has to be a huge piece. The more I detox and do things for my liver health, the better I feel and function. I've regained about 75% function with detoxing and nutrition and no prescription meds for the liver to process. Still have a ways to go with OTC things, for which I'm concerned, but have to survive daily with a job. I filter water, filter air, work a job where there are as few environmental toxins about as possible...

Still struggle with MCS, but incidentally, it showed up and got worse AFTER function improved, which to me points to toxic load still ongoing and on its way out more than anything, most likely digging into the deepest layers finally. I break out into the oddest rashes regularly. Everything points to detoxing, which points to liver function. I'm always cracking jokes about how I baby and care for my liver so I can keep healthy function my entire life! Definitely a huge and important part of the picture.
 

undcvr

Senior Member
Messages
822
Location
NYC
In my opinion detox really is the basis of everything alternative medicine and unlike the blind men i think it is the one-eyed king in the land of the blind. Regardless of what other symptoms show up along the way the point is to keep detoxing. Keep showing/teaching the body what a better state without toxins is like and how those toxins shud be removed as quickly as possible. No holding on to them where ever in the body just to cause problems later on. Many pple with lifelong CFS need to show the body how it is done becos the body has no basis to compare such a healthy state to at all. It has picked up and held on to toxins for as long as it can remember and does not know how release it. The trick is to create a 'safe space' for the body to let it know that it is ok to let go of these toxins and that letting it out of the body is not a bad thing.
 
Messages
80
I have to agree that the liver plays a huge role in ME/CFS. It may not be the only piece, it may be much like the blind men and the elephant, after all. But it has to be a huge piece. The more I detox and do things for my liver health, the better I feel and function. I've regained about 75% function with detoxing and nutrition and no prescription meds for the liver to process. Still have a ways to go with OTC things, for which I'm concerned, but have to survive daily with a job. I filter water, filter air, work a job where there are as few environmental toxins about as possible...




Can I ask, what is your particular regimen for liver detox? Hard for me to find one that doesn't make things worse
 

vli

Senior Member
Messages
653
Location
CA
Yes, please. I think I've asked undcvr abt this, but essentially: isn't it such a catch-22 bc the weaker we are the more we need to detox and yet the less likely we'll be able to tolerate the detox process?
 

heapsreal

iherb 10% discount code OPA989,
Messages
10,089
Location
australia (brisbane)
Yes, please. I think I've asked undcvr abt this, but essentially: isn't it such a catch-22 bc the weaker we are the more we need to detox and yet the less likely we'll be able to tolerate the detox process?
I think we still need to go after the infections, maybe a poor detox process has let them in but i think once there in then we need to treat these infections more directly while looking after the liver.
 

Old Salt

Rowing the boat
Messages
70
Location
S/W Pa.
Hi Old Salt, I think there might be genetic risk factors, but I am unsure of this. Its probable, from my current perspective, that some of us might have genetic issues, while others have aquired issues. My best guess is that its a combination of factors that are responsible, and that combination might vary person to person.

I view blood bacterial toxins like LPS the same way I view excess salicylates getting into the blood. Salicylates should be neutralized by gut bacteria somewhat, and in the case of LPS its either shedding or death of bacteria that releases it.

Then it has to go through the gut wall. The gut wall is semipermiable naturally to allow absorption of nutrients. Note we are talking molecules not whole bacteria here. The gut has a sizeable immune capacity. It should neutralize both toxins and salicylates. If that fails it makes it to the blood. The blood then takes it via the portal vein to the liver. The liver is a massive immunological filter. Layer after layer of immune cells that are supposed to detox the blood so that toxic substances do not make it into the general circulation. For it to get into the blood then both the gut immune system and the liver have to be functioning sub par, but that is more likely if there is too much LPS being released into the blood stream.

I hope to post a blog on this three or four blogs from now. The next three are political, then I am planning to return to biochemistry, looking at bacterial toxins and the gut immune system.

To function correctly the immune cells have to be healthy. They need various substrates including glutathione. They require that they not be receiving immune signals which tell them to stop working, and require normal mitochondrial function. Furthermore for any individual toxin it requires the right form of the detox and associated enzymes to be there for optimal effect. That is where the genetics comes in. If your enzyme forms (called isoforms) are not optimal for a given toxin, then more will get through. Generally though there is a trade-off in that they are better adapted to other toxins.

We know we have immune issues. We know that NK cells have substandard function. I wonder what the result would be if we started investigating liver biopsies? Not a pleasant non-invasive procedure, but we might learn something.

The final stage of defence is in the tissues. For salicylates that defence is often glutathione. For LPS I am still unsure. I do know that selenium is associated with improved tolerance, but I do not know that we really understand the mechanism (presuming this association is causally linked, which it might not be). I can speculate, link it back to glutathione, but I want to do more investigation of this first and I am busy writing up political stuff.

So I don't think genetics is an absolute requirement, but I am fairly sure it can increase risk, and in some cases may severely increase risk. I also think it takes multiple failures in the immune system to see a problem. So, are there multiple events causing it, and it only occurs when these are combined? Or is there a single underlying cause somewhere that starts all these processes off? That cause could of course be genetic.

Bye, Alex

Hi Old Salt, I think there might be genetic risk factors, but I am unsure of this. Its probable, from my current perspective, that some of us might have genetic issues, while others have aquired issues. My best guess is that its a combination of factors that are responsible, and that combination might vary person to person.

I view blood bacterial toxins like LPS the same way I view excess salicylates getting into the blood. Salicylates should be neutralized by gut bacteria somewhat, and in the case of LPS its either shedding or death of bacteria that releases it.

Then it has to go through the gut wall. The gut wall is semipermiable naturally to allow absorption of nutrients. Note we are talking molecules not whole bacteria here. The gut has a sizeable immune capacity. It should neutralize both toxins and salicylates. If that fails it makes it to the blood. The blood then takes it via the portal vein to the liver. The liver is a massive immunological filter. Layer after layer of immune cells that are supposed to detox the blood so that toxic substances do not make it into the general circulation. For it to get into the blood then both the gut immune system and the liver have to be functioning sub par, but that is more likely if there is too much LPS being released into the blood stream.

I hope to post a blog on this three or four blogs from now. The next three are political, then I am planning to return to biochemistry, looking at bacterial toxins and the gut immune system.

To function correctly the immune cells have to be healthy. They need various substrates including glutathione. They require that they not be receiving immune signals which tell them to stop working, and require normal mitochondrial function. Furthermore for any individual toxin it requires the right form of the detox and associated enzymes to be there for optimal effect. That is where the genetics comes in. If your enzyme forms (called isoforms) are not optimal for a given toxin, then more will get through. Generally though there is a trade-off in that they are better adapted to other toxins.

We know we have immune issues. We know that NK cells have substandard function. I wonder what the result would be if we started investigating liver biopsies? Not a pleasant non-invasive procedure, but we might learn something.

The final stage of defence is in the tissues. For salicylates that defence is often glutathione. For LPS I am still unsure. I do know that selenium is associated with improved tolerance, but I do not know that we really understand the mechanism (presuming this association is causally linked, which it might not be). I can speculate, link it back to glutathione, but I want to do more investigation of this first and I am busy writing up political stuff.

So I don't think genetics is an absolute requirement, but I am fairly sure it can increase risk, and in some cases may severely increase risk. I also think it takes multiple failures in the immune system to see a problem. So, are there multiple events causing it, and it only occurs when these are combined? Or is there a single underlying cause somewhere that starts all these processes off? That cause could of course be genetic.

Bye, Alex
 

Little Bluestem

All Good Things Must Come to an End
Messages
4,930
My local paper's ask the doctor column recently was on non-alcoholic fatty liver (NAFL). It said that NAFL can be caused by obesity and diabetes. I don’t see either of these problems being discussed much here. Low blood sugar is more common.

It also said that there is some evidence that the type of bacteria in our gut may influence whether we get NAFL. I wonder if this would be more of a factor for us.

The treatment it recommended was weight loss. At my last doctor’s visit it came up that I had tried to lose weight with limited success. My dr. immediately argued with me about why I had done that. I absolutely am not underweight or anorexic. I lost 5% of my weight in 3 months, so not an extreme diet. Arguing with a person with NAFL about losing weight just shows how little MDs know about diet and nutrition.

The article did say that research on fatty liver disease is intense. Maybe they will accidentally include some people with ME.
 

undcvr

Senior Member
Messages
822
Location
NYC
@heaps: It is true that the weaker you are the more prone you are to the side effects of detoxing but at the same time you need to detox more if you are weak. My only suggestion is to bite the bullet and do it. The process will be painful and awful to go through but you will come of the other side of the tunnel feeling better and while in the tunnel, "go towards the lite !"

The answer is and will always be BILE. Bile is the only substance in the body that will be able to remove oil soluble toxins from the body and those are the toxins that cause cfs symptoms. Water soluble toxins are removed in the urine. To keep eating your greens, not trying to sound sanctimonious but they are really what stimulates our body to make bile, the bitter compounds in them.
 
Messages
54
Location
rome italy
Hello undcvr! Your theory is very interesting. Thank you for posting it and trying to help all of us. I am very happy to hear that you are recovering!! marvelous words!! hehe
I have a friend with fibro who says that she is also "curing" her self with liver flushes.. she doesn't know about her phase 1 or 2, and she isn't taking grapefruit juice... but still... there has to be a relation!
Do you think that by cleaning your liver and colon you could feel better? And maybe make your liver phase 1 and 2 start working normal again?
Have you tried liver flushing?
I had the phase 1 and phase 2 liver detox test some years ago. I have, like you say, phase 1 fast and phase 2 normal. My phase 1 is just slightly faster, but that is maybe the reason I don't have severe cfs...
Thanks for posting your theory! I was really thinking about the liver lately and reading your posts gave me the last "push" I needed to start addressing it!! :)
 

undcvr

Senior Member
Messages
822
Location
NYC
I myself had nvr had my liver fase 1 and 2 checked either. It's very big in alternative medicine but mainstream medicine does not use it. But all doctors are now very aware of grapefruit's ability to slow liver enzymes and keep certain drugs longer in the blood than normal. I also am not taking grapefruit juice, it was just too expensive and alot of sugar. I just switched to a bioflavonoid supplement with high amounts of Vit C as well.

B6 and B vitamin complex does not particularly slow or speed up liver fase 1 or 2 either. At least not anywhere that I have read so far but they do support all parts of liver function especially B6.

My own personal theory as to why B6 and Zinc work so well is that they support enzyme systems and production in the body. B6 itself is involved in over 200. For pple with CFS either the thyroid has shut down or the immune system is attacking it. We end up having a chronically low body temperature that enzymes cannot work at. Hi doses of B6 n Zn help push these processes through.

I have taken thryroid glandular supplements before for T3 not T4 and also kelp for Iodine. It has worked for me at some point in the past before.
 
Messages
54
Location
rome italy
mmm.. interesting.. i have a lot to study! I think in some blood tests my Zinc levels were low..
What do you think about liver flushing?
I have been taking B complex vitamins for a long time.. with no improvement.. maybe i need to try B6 and Zinc together..
 

undcvr

Senior Member
Messages
822
Location
NYC
I suggest u keep taking the B vites but add B6 P5P to it. Buy it from the good brand and try taking 50mg 2X daily. Take Zinc at 50mg a day, elemental Zn not when as calculated together with its compound.
 

undcvr

Senior Member
Messages
822
Location
NYC
atoska I don't know what a liver flush is and I have nvr done it but if it is about getting your liver and gallbladder to release as much bile as it possibly can each time then I have been doing that for awhile now.
 
Messages
80
atoska I don't know what a liver flush is and I have nvr done it but if it is about getting your liver and gallbladder to release as much bile as it possibly can each time then I have been doing that for awhile now.


Someone tell me how to go about a liver flush? What do you take? I am clueless
 
Messages
54
Location
rome italy
undcvr.. thanks for your tips! I will definetly add zinc and b6 to my list of daily supplements! :)
Liver flushes release bile ducts of parasites and gall stones. So yeah.. it should fit with your theory! I'm going to study it a little more and try it after christmas!
alwayshopeful there is a whole protocol about liver flushing. It's a seven day protocol, the last day you take epsom salts and do the flush. Research Hulda Clark on google.. she is the main doctor who started with this. There have been others like Andreas Moritz. If you do it, you have to study a little before doing it. My friend says she is feeling better than ever! I have a couple links, but they are in spanish.. if you don't find any info.. i can do a search for you!!
 
Messages
54
Location
rome italy
well.. yes, everything you change to fix your cfs is something that you should change for life if you feel it is helping.
I meant that the liver flush lasts 7 days. You can do it as many times as you want, but you shouldn't do one every week. Maybe once a month. And when you have expelled everything, you can stop. And to keep up with the cleanse, do the 7 day protocol like once or twice a year.
But the protocol is not only the liver flush thing, it includes other things that yes, you should take and do for life.
 

GracieJ

Senior Member
Messages
772
Location
Utah
alwayshopeful
vli

My favorite liver detox is the same lemonade that is used for a three-day liver cleanse. I've never been able to go more than a couple of hours on it before my blood sugar drops, so never could do the full program. So, instead, I mix up the lemonade first thing in the morning and drink it on an empty stomach and wait for a while before eating anything else. Seems to work well, though not as fast or dramatic as the three-day cleanse is supposed to be. I will use lemonade every morning several days in a row. (Juice of one lemon, a tablespoon of maple syrup, filtered water, and a pinch of cayenne pepper, all to taste.)

I also occasionally use liver-friendly herbs like dandelion or milk thistle for a week or so.

I'm a firm believer in not causing problems in the first place, and one of the biggest offenders in our culture is lotions and cosmetics. If you put it on your skin, it goes in the blood stream without the benefit of digestive juices breaking down substances. The liver has to deal with the components in the lotion. If you wouldn't eat it, don't put it on your body. The liver is way ahead just with that one simple rule.

There was an article in a massage therapy trade magazine years ago that talked about a chronic fatigue syndrome-like condition developing among massage therapists who habitually used lotion on their clients, and the role the liver was playing in the condition. I was not yet officially diagnosed with ME/CFS when that came out, but you can believe that I immediately switched to food-grade oil for all my clients -- and for me!