1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
The Pathway to Prevention (P2P) for ME/CFS: A Dangerous Process
Gabby Klein gives an overview of the P2P process, shedding light on the pitfalls with advice as to what we can do in protest ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

CFS/ME as a Liver issue

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by undcvr, Aug 5, 2012.

  1. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    795
    Likes:
    131
    NYC
    So my theory is that pple with CFS/ME actually have a problem with their liver function. From all the liver tests that I have done and all the other pple with cfs that I have interviewed and looked at their lab work, the common result is that phase 1 is very out of whack with phase 2. Phase 1 can be function at like 20 times faster than phase 2 causing all these intermediate metabolites to spill over into the blood and go everywhere else in the body to cause havoc. Slowing down and speeding up phase 2 seems to be the most practical thing to do but even then it is not easily accomplished since the liver phase one is working at a much faster pace than phase 2 there is no realistic way of speeding up phase 2 and all it's 6 detox pathways at once. I think that a better way to do this is to stabilise the liver and make it work more orderly and this should help much more.

    All these toxins running around is what is causing problems with the other glands, organs and the gut. If you do not treat the liver with whatever system you are treating at the same time, the issue with only come back.

    The solution is: a good multiple B vitamin complex and Grapefruit juice. You can take the B complex a few times a day even and drink 4-5 cups of grapefruit juice. The B vitamins taken together with stabilise the liver and make it work more normally which grapefuit can slow dwn phase 1. Citrus fruits, which grapefruit is a member if is very very interesting. In all my research that I have done, they either speed up phase 2 or slow down phase 1. Both these 2 effects are desired when you have cfs. Of all the citrus fruits I have read, only grapefruit and bergamote, slow dwn phase 1, the rest speed up phase 2. Also it is not just the juice or the pulp that you have to eat, it is the whole fruit. Much of the active ingredients are in the rind/peel and whites of the fruit. When you juice, put the whole fruit in.

    Again just taking these citrus fruits alone is not enough because phase 1 is so quik that that the whole detox system is out of whack. There is no way you can make phase 2 keep up, you need to slow phase 1 dwn. Grapefruit and B vitamins do that.
     
    SunnyInside, Wayne and jeffrez like this.
  2. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    795
    Likes:
    131
    NYC
    Many enzyme systems and pathways in the liver have either been blocked or poisoned. This could be due to a genetic susceptibility to these pathways or a 'scar' left behind by a previous infection. Somehow during the past infection the pathogen was able to genetically alter the pathways to make them weak and susceptible to breaking dwn under stress. B vitamins come in and support these path ways as their cofactors.

    I have been using Jarrows B rite and taking 3-4 a day, I also take lots of vitamin C. In Traditional Chinese Medicine, B vitamins are considered a very yang or heaty food and should always be taken with Vitamin C which is considered cooling. This maked sense considering what these 2 supplements do on the liver.

    I have been able to run about 3 miles a few times a week. There is a way out from this.
     
    helen1, roxie60 and SunnyInside like this.
  3. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    7,106
    Likes:
    6,086
    Albuquerque
    Interesting theory but doesn't apply to all. My phase 1 liver detox is at the bottom rung of low and my phase 2 is normal.

    Also, if you are taking certain meds, you need to check carefully about how grapefruit affects the levels.

    Sushi
     
    Jon_Tradicionali and vli like this.
  4. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    795
    Likes:
    131
    NYC
    Ive thot about that, what happens if phase one is low, in that case u shud skip the grapefruit but the B vitamins would still work as they normalise liver functions in both ways since they are just cofactors to liver enzymes.
     
    vli likes this.
  5. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    7,106
    Likes:
    6,086
    Albuquerque
    Unfortunately, I was taking a good regime of B vitamins, milk thistle, etc. when tested--so must be other factors.

    Sushi
     
    vli likes this.
  6. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,108
    Likes:
    642
    NY
    I agree with Sushi - it's a very interesting idea, I think you're actually onto something for many people in some roundabout way. But for example, like Sush my Phase I was nearly wiped out, in my case by toxic exposure, whereas Phase II was normal to possibly even high. The analysis said the ratio was off and increasing glutathione could imbalance the system further. All that happened before getting CFS.

    When now I take even tiny amounts of grapefruit, GSE, or milk thistle, I get severe liver pain, the one time with GSE even leading to a crash of some sort. I take B-Right every day, along with extra B5, and haven't really noticed anything with it. My molybdenum was really low, so I supplemented that and again noticed nothing. Really surprising b/c I thought increasing the phase I would help.

    So while you might be on the right track for a lot of people - running 3 miles a few times a week is amazing - even one mile one time a year would be amazing for me (meaning taking the whole year to do it incrementally, lol) - what do you say about this reverse situation? So far it seems that if this theory is true only the fast Phase I condition is amenable to treatment that improves the fatigue.

    Thanks, very interesting topic.
     
    vli and Wayne like this.
  7. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,500
    Likes:
    11,994
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    The original protocol I came up with in the 90s was high in fruit (primarily citrus, ten pieces a day) and had four B complex, but it had many other things - I called it the shotgun effect. Each thing added something to the mix, but the cost was prohibitive. It however restored my energy, but did not remove my fatigue and I wound up developing severe symptoms including daily migraines. Since I was running out of money, I stopped.

    There is a lot of LPS coming from the gut. Its first port of call is the liver. I would suggest one thing to do is to investigate what LPS does to phase 1 and phase 2 conjugation. Connecting liver damage to LPS damage would link liver metabolism to the immunological and metabolic problems found in CFS and ME.

    Its entirely possible that high dose B vitamins might mask the problem in many of us. It is not so clear that its a cure. Its been done before, my old CFS doctor was doing this in the early 90s, in conjunction with many other treatments. He was the one who had patients eating two pieces of fruit before every meal, and more for snacks, plus B vitamins (though not as high as I finally took it). He had many improve, but very few were cured.

    Do be sure to take methyl folate or folinic acid, not folic acid. Also be very careful with B6 dosage, its toxic in excess. So is GABA I think.

    Bye, Alex
     
  8. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    795
    Likes:
    131
    NYC
    I don't think there is a cure for this illness and that searching for one could be wishful thinking. Especially if it is a genetic condition which makes you more susceptible to it everytime there is stress. If you have a liver that is prone to breaking dwn when exposed to stress and toxins then you have no other choice but to supplement it to keep it functioning.

    It is interesting what sushi says about testing for a low phase 1 bc over the years with this illness I have experienced low phase 1 also. Taking something like caffeine or a stimulant would just knock me up for days. But I am surprisingly able to cope with taking stimulants nowadays. It maybe a condition where the liver is just malfunction in both directions and needs to be supplemented to function properly. The hit I take to my immune system, endocrine system, thyroid and CNS is minimised whenever I go on a protocol that treats them as well as the liver at the same time.
     
    vli likes this.
  9. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    795
    Likes:
    131
    NYC
    Yea it is a strange situation when taking GSE would supposedly make the situation better only makes it worse. In liver detox Gluthathione works in phase 2 but it does many other things in the body as well as a general antioxidant. Do you feel any different if you increase your B rite dosage everyday ?
     
  10. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    795
    Likes:
    131
    NYC
    jeffrez

    I would like to ask about about the time when you said your phase 1 was wiped out. That would be a condition that is very different from most cfs/me pple so I am going to guess that your symptoms, going through that period would be somewhat different too, besides the fatigue. Can you think back and remember if there were any other particular symptoms that come to mind or maybe even a cessation of the usual cfs/me symptoms, if even for awhile.
     
  11. alwayshopeful

    alwayshopeful

    Messages:
    74
    Likes:
    32
    Ok, stupid question. What is phase 1 and phase 2? Is this a special blood test for the liver?
     
    SquidProQuo and AFCFS like this.
  12. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,108
    Likes:
    642
    NY
    I haven't tried that b/c I've been afraid of developing peripheral neuropathies and the like from the high dose of B6. 25mg is the upper limit of what I feel comfortable taking anyway. Maybe there's an equivalent or better b-complex out there that doesn't have as much b6 and would allow for higher dosing. And not excessive B3, either, as too much tends to cause liver enzyme elevation in me.

    Phase I supposedly was wiped out following a toxic exposure that only set the stage for the ME/CFS. I still had chronically worse fatigue then, but it wasn't like the actual ME/CFS, only some increased muscle tiredness and worse than normal fatigue after some excessive activity. I could still walk several miles per day w/out really much problem and close to normal recovery time, for example. Just felt more crappy than usual for a few hours or rest of the day following it.

    The only real symptoms I noticed otherwise were related to just feeling super toxic. Don't think I was metabolizing much of anything at the time, and it was all making me really sick from the chemical sensitivities. That has greatly improved over the years, but the GSE incident was a few years ago, even, close to maybe 5-6 yrs or possibly more after the chemical injury. I thought the enzymes must have recovered more by then since the sensitivities were improved, but seeing as how I tested low for molybdenum even around a year ago, I can only assume they probably never really recovered.
     
  13. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,108
    Likes:
    642
    NY
    Yes, there are tests you can take to measure the activity of those liver detox pathways. Phase I refers to the stage of breaking down toxins and xenobiotic substances, primarily with cytochrome enzymes, I think, and Phase II is where the breakdown products are conjugated with glutathione so they can be safely excreted. There are other processes like glucuronidation, but I don't know if strictly speaking they are considered Phase II. Think that's a separate pathway, but maybe alex or undcvr knows more.
     
  14. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

    Messages:
    764
    Likes:
    494
    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    SquidProQuo, leela, Asklipia and 6 others like this.
  15. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,309
    Likes:
    840
    UK
    Wow - that's pretty comprehensive - thanks merylg.
     
    merylg likes this.
  16. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    795
    Likes:
    131
    NYC
    http://balancedconcepts.net/liver_phases_detox_paths.pdf

    Please look at the link above, it is really a generalised way of looking at how the liver detoxes stuff and it has also fallen out of fashion with mainstream medicine. It is basically based on the cytochrome super family for enzymes and how they react with stuff. Somewhere inside there, those enzymes have gone out of whack for us and there is almost no way to treat it because it is a family of over 400 enzymes. There is not possible way to treat all of them unless it is from a gene therapy point of view I think.
     
    Wayne likes this.
  17. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    795
    Likes:
    131
    NYC
    @jeffrez: that seems about consistent with what I have heard and what I have suspected, that is it always better to have phase 1 under performing that over stimulated. It is easier to treat and the symptoms are not quite as bad. It is the metabolites produced from a phase 1 in overdrive that is producing all the autoimmune conditions.

    In that case where GSE did not wrk for you, did you try calcium glucarate or making your liver produce more bile. If phase 2 is working so fast, moving more bile out of your system faster and reducing recycling of bile wud help with moving toxins out.

    Of all the things I have ever tried, slowing phase 1, speeding up phase 2, stabilsing the liver and making more bile, all these steps have really helped me. That is why I am convinced the problem lies inside the liver and not in the immune system.

    Just by addressing these, I can run, recover, and get off my AVs (Valcyte n Famvir).
     
    Jarod and jeffrez like this.
  18. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    795
    Likes:
    131
    NYC
    yea wow great site and I thot I found a good one ...
     
  19. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    795
    Likes:
    131
    NYC
    The normal liver enzyme test for AST (SGOT) and ALT (SGPT) don't apply here bc they only spill out of the liver into the bloodstream when the liver is damaged or injured. Our livers are Not damaged or injured, it is more subtle than that, they are malfunctioning.
     
    vli likes this.
  20. Old Salt

    Old Salt Rowing the boat

    Messages:
    70
    Likes:
    19
    S/W Pa.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page