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CFS & Low Level Radiation Exposure (NCF Study)

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by shannah, Aug 20, 2010.

  1. mojoey

    mojoey Senior Member

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    Yeah so they published a short Q&A back in winter of 09 that provided scant information and said

    based on a study by Dr. Bell in 1991. Ironically, Dr. Bell is very clear in his stance that XMRV can potentially cause ME/CFS and is insistent on seeing this through and actively participating in finding out the truth. It has been a year since and NCF hasn't contributed any money toward XMRV research or even shown modest interest in the pathogen.
  2. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Ionizing and Nonionizing Radiation

    Hi, all.

    Two types of radiation are being discussed in this thread, and I want to note that there is a big difference between them, in terms of how they interact with matter, including the matter making up the human body.

    Ionizing radiation is radiation which has the ability to displace electrons from atoms or molecules, that is, to produce ions, which are charged atoms or molecules. Ionizing radiation is produced by X-ray machines, high-energy accelerators, and decay of radioactive materials.

    Nonionizing radiation, on the other hand, does not have the ability to remove electrons from atoms or molecules. It can, however, deliver energy to electrons, and can excite molecules in terms of giving them more vibrational energy. This type of radiation is produced by microwave ovens, cell phones, wireless computer devices, etc.

    The borderline between these two types of radiation is ultraviolet radiation. It is capable of doing damage, such as occurs in sunburn, and it is also known to increase the probability of skin cancer. It can excite electrons to higher energy states within atoms or molecules, and affect chemical reactions, but it doesn't produce ionization.

    We are all subject to relatively low dose rates of ionizing radiation from decay of naturally-occurring radioactive material in the earth and atmosphere, and from cosmic rays. This is unavoidable, and it is debated whether ionizing radiation at natural dose rates is harmful, neutral, or even beneficial (according to the so-called "hormesis" hypothesis). It is well-established that ionizing radiation is harmful in large enough doses. It can increase the probability of developing cancer. At very high doses, it can have more acute effects, and at very high dosages, such as from a nuclear explosion, it can produce death in a short time.

    Nonionizing radiation is also known to be harmful at high enough intensities, because of its heating (or thermal) effect. Its effects at lower intensities are the subject of controversy. Some studies indicate that there are so-called "non-thermal" effects of nonionizing radiation, but at this time there is no consensus within the scientific community about this.

    Many people, including many PWCs, report that they have electromagnetic sensitivity. They experience symptoms from exposure to nonionizing radiation at intensities at which the general population is not aware of any symptoms. It is not understood how nonionizing radiation produces such effects.

    I have suggested that this occurs because of damage to the myelin in these people. Myelin is the "insulation" on nerve axons. When there is a partial block in the methylation cycle, I have suggested that the myelin will not be properly maintained, because there are at least three components in myelin that require methylation for their synthesis in the body. It is known that the processing speed is slowed in CFS, and it is also known that the speed of transmission of nerve impulses depends on having intact myelin.

    From the standpoint of electromagnetic theory, the human body acts as a receiving antenna for environmental nonionizing radiation. This radiation induces small alternating electrical currents in the body. In the body, these currents would be carried primarily by the naturally-existing ions, such as sodium, potassium, chloride, and others. I've suggested that when the myelin is damaged, currents can be induced in the nerves, and this ultimately produces the symptoms that people report. This is an unproven hypothesis. However, I think it may fit the physics and the reports of PWCs.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  3. MDL

    MDL

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    Hi Rich,
    Did you know that hydrogen sulfide has been shown to have an effect on myelin sheath? More food for thought...
    Marian
  4. mojoey

    mojoey Senior Member

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    Thank you for that explanation. The lack of insulation on nerve axons leading to induction of currents in the nerves is the best explanation of sensitivity to EMFs that I've heard.
  5. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Marian.

    No, I didn't know that. Very interesting!

    Joey,

    Thank you! I think it has a chance of being valid, but I haven't done a good theoretical analysis of it. I'm kind of overloaded with things to do. It's hard to find people who have a background in both electromagnetics and biological sciences. People studying science usually go into the physical sciences or the biological sciences, but not both. It takes some understanding of both to work this out.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  6. BEG

    BEG Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    What about the 30 radiation treatments I received to the breast and which also hit a corner of my heart and lung? Which type of radiation was that? I was incredibly ill by the end of those treatments. I was already into 3+ years of CFS.

    BEG
  7. BEG

    BEG Senior Member

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    the above from Rich

    Well, I would guess that cancer radiation treatment would be the first type, ionizing.

    the above from this link:

    http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Therapy/radiation
  8. pictureofhealth

    pictureofhealth XMRV - L'Agent du Jour

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    Electro biology

    Thanks Rich - v helpful explanation re Myelin.

    Now I am wondering whether the myelin depletion and/or sensitivity to EMF's is a 'chicken or egg' scenario in ME/CFS? ie. Is it possible that these damaging effects are caused by oxidative stress and inflammation or give rise to it?

    The reason I mention this is that I am now checking out the 'Earthing' book, clinical research & website referred to by Chris and Wayne in their earlier comments here (on this and another thread).

    The book's Forward is by James L. Oschman PhD, an academic cell biologist and biophysicist who is much published in the world's leading scientific journals.
    The book itself has been co written by 3 people - a Cardiologist (ie an expert in the field of 'electro medicine'! as he calls it), an expert in Cable TV engineering & electrical/earthing technologies, and an health writer - so there is a good combination of opinion from several sciences ie biology, chemistry and physics, represented and cross referenced!

    The 'Earthing' book & website refers to clinical research which suggests that direct exposure to the earth's field (ie by walking barefoot on the ground), which can now be reproduced indoors by a grounding installation, normalises a person's physiology (autonomic nervous system, endocrine and immune system).

    The most exciting part of this discovery (for me) is that the researchers discovered that a flow of electrons comes up from the earth through the earthing wire (or bare feet or body on the ground), and into the person, reducing inflammation & eliminating it in some cases. Scientifically speaking, the electrons apparently have an affinity for the positively charged inflammatory free radicals and migrate naturally to these areas of oxidative stress in the body. This 'marriage' stops the free radicals ravaging body tissues in search of spare electrons. The body can then repair and normalise itself. This includes pain reducing and vanishing in patients referred to in the studies, sleep patterns restored to normal (by for eg, normalisation of cortisol to appropriate levels at appropriate times of day and night), and improved cognitive function and stamina etc etc. Clinical trials and studies are referenced at the end of the book. (The anedotal reports also make astonishing reading, including improvements in long term MS patients - which is an encouraging indicaton of possible myelin repair and restoration of normal electrical conductivity in the body!)

    The authors take this one step further and hypothesise that the symptoms of illness, pain/inflammation, insomnia (and possibly even anxiety/depression) that we experience in our modern lives, may in fact be symptoms of 'electron deficiency'.

    Normally we cut ourselves off from the energy by walking outdoors in insulated soles (man made soles, rubber soles on trainers for eg) and walking indoors on non conductive carpets (with non conductive underlay) and lino for eg. We are also not on the ground when we sleep.
    To use an analogy, without the use of a the grounding wire, the cable TV reception and picture will be 'snowy' and interfered with by other signals from other electrical equipment nearby. The researchers suggest that human physiology is the same ie because we are not grounded our electrophysiology is highly susceptible to incoming frequencies from any equipment and radiation nearby and therefore our physiology is 'all over the place' (to coin a technical phrase).

    ie Perhaps its not so much that EMF's are 'bad', but that earth grounding is 'good' overall for our health (and mood also apparently).

    Many people with ME/CFS report strange body 'vibrations' and a sensation of being 'over electrified' in the body as if 'wired up to the national grid'. It will be interesting to see if grounding can reduce these unpleasant symptoms/sensations.

    I think you will definitely find here the wonderful constellation of minds from a good cross section of the biological, physics/physical and electromagnetic sciences that you are seeking. Its an exciting read!

    btw - sorry longer post than I intended -
    www.earthinginstitute.net
  9. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

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    whist I acknowledge that soem people are sensitive to EMF etc (difficult for me not to being one) and that over exposure probably isnt good for people I suspect that "grounding" probably has as much validity as magnetic braclets - ie none other thn placebo - but if inventing theories makes the placebo effect more so then go for it lol
  10. pictureofhealth

    pictureofhealth XMRV - L'Agent du Jour

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    Rich - just found the other EMF thread and saw your comments there. Apologies if I've doubled up on the info here! Perhaps a Moderator will be able to combine the 2 threads at some point.

    Wonko - I know what you mean about the magnetic bracelets! I hear of people who have great benefits from them (including ME patients in the UK), but they have done nothing for me.

    What I find appeals to me about this latest research and book (apart from the fact that a Cardiologist and a Cable TV expert - completely new angle - are involved), is the idea that electrons can reduce inflammation in the body and normalise the nervous system (esp the Autonomic nervous system) - according to their clinical trials. It sounds like something I could really benefit from!

    I guess this aspect appeals to me as I used to be a Coronary Care Unit Staff nurse, many years ago. I really hope a Cardiac expert would not make claims like that without the research being rock solid or his professional reputation, and his patients, might suffer hugely.

    Anyway, I telephoned the company and the products are not yet available for use with the UK sockets/electrical system outlets. Although a ground rod outside is best, the lovely old house where I live is surrounded by/entirely paved over by rectangular cobble stones (a bit like a stable yard for horses) and there is no ground/grass/mud next to the house to stick the rod in. I could hire a knowledge electrician to rig something up, but its entirely beyond my energy/available budget for now! Plus I expect the average UK electrician would take a long sideways look at you if you mention this new approach (they deal with wires and gadgets, not patients and nervous systems!), and that's something I can't be asked to deal with right now!

    The Earthing product office said that they had had a LOT of interest from UK/Europe and Australia (she seemed mystified as to how word had spread so quickly - obviously not aware of the power of patient forums!) and that they hope to have products suited to the electrical power outlets here hopefully by early next year.
  11. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Brown-eyed Girl.

    Yes, radiation therapy for cancer treatment uses ionizing radiation, usually from a linear accelerator that produces high-energy X rays. I had rectal cancer myself, and underwent this treatment, also. I didn't have CFS on top of it, but it was lots of fun, anyway! :)-) In your case, it must have increased your already-present state of oxidative stress. Sorry about that!

    Best regards,

    Rich
  12. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, picture of health.

    Thanks for mentioning that book again. I should get a copy and read it.

    I want to note that the hypothesis that you have described, from this book, is basically a DC (direct current) type of hypothesis, while the one I have suggested is an AC (alternating current) hypothesis. It's true that grounding the body to the earth electrically will essentially zero out both the DC and AC potentials. It's also true that the earth's electrical potential does vary, but this is a much smaller variation than an electrically isolated human body would have, because of the much larger capacitance of the earth itself. This is somewhat complicated by the fact that electrical potential has to be defined in reference to the potential of something else. That is, it is a potential difference. Usually, we measure relative to the earth itself as the reference. If we want to talk about the variation of the earth's electrical potential, we have to have something else to measure it against. That can be problematic. It's sort of like the guy who said give me a fulcrum and I will use a lever to move the earth. It's hard to find that fulcrum!

    I have to say that so far I don't find the oxidizing free radical neutralization hypothesis convincing, for a couple of reasons: The first is that the main reactive oxygen species are superoxide (O2-), hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), and hydroxyl radical (OH). The first is negatively charged, and the other two are neutral. (Note that the hydroxyl free radical is not the same as the hydroxide ion, which has a negative charge.) So the notion that the reactive oxygen species are positively charged and would thus attract electrons, is just not true.

    Second, if there is a net DC charge on an at least partially conducting body, it resides at the surface of the body, and there is no net DC electric field in the interior of the body, and hence, no net electrical charge in the interior, by Gauss's law. Thus, the notion that there are unbalanced charges within the interior of the human body is also not true. This is not true of AC fields. They can and do exist in the interior of a partially conducting body such as the human body, because they are driven by externally applied electromagnetic fields, and Gauss's law applies only in an electrostatic situation (i.e. no moving charges).

    It is true that a net DC charge can exist on the surface of the human body. This accumulates partly by the impact of ions from the atmosphere on the body, and partly by contact and rubbing of the shoes on carpets or the clothing on upholstery, such as plastic automobile seat covers. This accumulation is the reason for the static electricity shocks people get when they touch metal door knobs or metal parts of automobiles after accumulating such a charge.

    The reason that contact or rubbing between two different electrically insulating materials causes a transfer of charge and thus a buildup of static electricity is that thermodynamics requires that if they are in contact, the chemical potential of the electrons must be equal at the contacting surface. Because each material has its own equilibrium chemical potential for the electrons when in isolation, and they are all different from each other, depending on their chemical makeup and molecular structure, there needs to be a flow of electrons right at the surface in order to equalize the chemical potential. When the two materials are then separated, there will be a net electrical charge on each of them, positive on one and negative on the other. Rubbing gives more intimate contact over a larger area of material, so that builds up a bigger charge than simple contact.

    Dr. Shoemaker has suggested that the reason PWCs have more problems with static electricity is that the moisture layer on their skin is more electrically conductive that that of healthy, normal people. He suggests that the reason is that their perspiration is more concentrated in electrolytes because of the higher osmolality of their blood, in turn because of the diabetes insipidus (not the same as diabetes mellitus) that many PWCs have, as a result of low secretion of antidiuretic hormone by the hypothalamus/pituitary. The higher electrical conductivity of the moisture layer on the skin would allow the electrical charge from a larger fraction of the total skin to be discharged when a conducting body is touched that is either grounded or has a high capacitance. In other words, the conducting layer on the skin gives the person's body a higher effective capacitance, because the capacitance depends on charge and surface area (as well as on the dielectric coefficient of the medium that constitutes the dielectric of the capacitor).
    I think Dr. Shoemaker might be right about this part.

    I don't know if all of this makes sense to you, but that's where I'm at on these hypotheses at the moment.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  13. pictureofhealth

    pictureofhealth XMRV - L'Agent du Jour

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    Hi Rich,

    Thank you for posting this helpful information. Much food for thought here.

    Yes I do tend to get a bit lost when discussing physics, although I can pick up a gist here and there – but the paragraph on Dr Shoemaker (back to biology) made perfect sense!

    Its good also to be reminded that this is still an hypothesis –it is easy to get very carried away when hearing of positive study outcomes and patients feeling better – for obvious reasons!

    So where to go from here?

    First thing is, I need to finish reading the book!

    I have to admit that this idea still appeals to me – mainly for the anti inflammatory and improved sleep claims, but also anything that drains away the ‘elecrical hyperstimulation’ will be a Godsend!! I fully appreciate your reservations – it is sensible to be analytical and to read all the data and evaluate all the known evidence. I am trying to do the same but perhaps without the full picture (ie. I have v little knowledge of practical physics).

    My criteria for success, however, when trying out all new ideas since I have been ill, rather unscientifically I admit, is whether I ‘feel better’. (I can hear the huge inspiration, head shaking and tutting of seasoned scientists here!) But, after 14 years of illness, I have tried many highly recommended, trial based, conventional and alternative theories with much promise until now, some from doctors, many sounding entirely plausible and most prohibitively expensive – and none of them had the desired placebo effect, let alone actually worked, so we’ll see.
    As long as it is not actually dangerous, it may be worth investigation.

    However, what strikes me after reading your post above and given your research background, is that you might be the best person to ask Dr Sinatra and Clint Ober – the authors - to address your ideas. I have now read about some of your investigations into the Methylation cycle and also seen a detailed summary of the medical rationale and your supplementation programme on Dr Myhill’s website.

    You and Dr Sinatra would be ideally placed to discuss and implement a research study to see if earthing helps to improve the Methylation Cycle dysfunction in ME/CFS patients. It could certainly further understanding of the biochemical mechanisms involved in the illness. (In fact, it might be a great project for Dr Myhill while she is waiting out her period of forcible ‘retirement’ - what a ridiculous and complete travesty of justice there!)

    Anyway, in the event I decide to go ahead with this new investigative venture, finances permitting, I have now devised a way to ground a grounding rod outside in a conductive (?)stone plant pot (ie in contact with the earth, though not in it, due to the cobble stones) and may put some copper wire under it too to improve conductivity – my first foray into pre school physics outside of the classroom! Maybe I will run the idea past the Earthing Institute techies, just to make sure I'm on the right tracks ...
    As long as the neighbour’s cat doesn’t get electrocuted, I should be ok (joke)!

    I have absolutely no idea what I’m doing, but since I read about the retired 71 year old golf player (in the book) who placed copper wires under his feet, and to the soles of his golf shoes, to improve his handicap and stay in the game with the younger players – I don’t feel so much of an isolated ‘fruit loop’!

    Many thanks again!
  14. RachelSkates

    RachelSkates

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    When I moved into a house with wireless I got so ill it was agonizing.

    My bones and joints became so painful that I could not get out of bed some days.

    I have no doubt it made me worse.
  15. pictureofhealth

    pictureofhealth XMRV - L'Agent du Jour

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    Hi Rachel, I also got ill shortly after our office was computerised (in the '90's) and have been ill since & unable to work for the last 5 years (or go on holiday). My body was constantly vibrating and shaking and I felt 'electrified' and exhausted, and developed insomnia, but I had no vocabularly in physics terms, until now, to understand what was happening. (Prior to that I was travelling around the world to some fab locations at the company's expense!)

    Do check out the new medical research at www.earthinginstitute.net if it would be of interest.

    A cardiologist and other scientists has been involved in this new research.
    The biomedical theory discussed here is that electrons supplied directly from the earth itself (or via an earthed wall socket in the house using a safely designed appliance connected to the earth,) can counteract inflammation and excessive oxidative stress in the body. Without electrons, protons and free radicals (a natural by product of repair in the body) go on the rampage trying to 'marry up' with electrons from the body's healthy tissue and cause untold damage.
    Being earthed, one way or another, provides the required electrons, and the body calms down and recalibrates itself.

    That's the theory anyway.

    Earthing also stablises the body when in contact with EMF's (from wired & wireless technology) and provides a safe outlet from the body for static electricity (built up from the contact with man made fibres in our environment - carpets, clothing etc).

    Although science, funded by government and private bodies, elsewhere has not been able to 'prove' a connection as far as I know, between EMF's and illness of all sorts, one US academic scientist who specialises in cell biology and biophysics thinks that fluctuating magnetic, and electrical fields/currents from equipment interferes with the transfer of protons and electrons at the cellular level of the body (& the mitochondria) and hence disrupts all kinds of electrical, chemical and hormonal processes in the body.

    The book is full of explanation (incl. Appendices) and results of new scientific studies on patients by doctors and researchers (not just members of the public).

    There are also excellent patient recovery stories in the book, including the son of a cardiologist who became so ill from EMF's (using wifi technology from his job as a trader) that he had to be hospitalised. EMF's and not being grounded to protect from them can lead to all kinds of malfunctioning in the immune system and he was vulnerable to all kinds of infections. Sound familiar? He eventually recovered using a grounded bed sheet every night.

    Several CFS and MS diagnosed patients benefited hugely. Arthritis pain stopped or was dramatically reduced etc.

    I would like to thank Wayne very much for posting the original article about this book on another thread and putting me in touch with this really up to date and impressive research. I have now almost finished reading the book and have ordered some products.

    (nb. if you live outside the USA, you will be able to safely use the products, but only with an outside ground rod, but you will NOT be able to use their cables inside the house yet. These have been designed only for the US electrical system so the voltage and amount of flow resistance which has to be built into the cable and is legally required for safety are TOTALLY different in other countries and even adaptors are NOT SAFE.
    They are currently developing specialised wall connectors for use in other countries and have a UK safe one already - but via an electrician based in the UK.
    ps I do not have shares in this company - but sure would like to get some!).

    I am not sure whether I am off topic on this thread - as Rich points out there are different types of radiation we might be discussing here.
  16. RachelSkates

    RachelSkates

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    Wow! Thank you for that post! It makes me pretty angry that this is going on without enough credence.

    When I lived in Canada, there was an uproar of parents trying to get the WIFI out of the schools. The kids were coming home with heart beats that were rapid, and neuro troubles and all sorts of terrible reactions!

    Health Canada shot it down, however at least it was majorly on the table and the discussion was way out there.

    I know that where I lived, not only was there wireless in the house, but when you log on and it shows all the other wirelesses in the area......gasp. It was all over all the time.

    About the Earthing: This is interesting. It is weird that I have always had a desire to lay on the ground.

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