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CFS is a Bacterial Infection

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by xks201, May 4, 2012.

  1. anciendaze

    anciendaze Senior Member

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    Just want to tell anyone curious about the subject of my post on this thread (#12) that it spawned a topic elsewhere which grew beyond my control.
  2. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    From the VSL website:

    Can I take VSL#3® if I have an intolerance to dairy products?

    Some dairy ingredients are used in the culture medium but are removed during fermentation and concentration. There might be trace amounts at very low levels and, for this reason, VSL#3® is not defined as a dairy-free product but as a non-dairy product. Evidence suggests that probiotics may be useful in the treatment of patients with lactose maldigestion and lactase deficiency. Recent studies have demonstrated that lactose is better digested from yogurt than from milk by lactase-deficient individuals and yogurt ingestion by these patients is paralleled by reduced symptoms. Many patients confirmed that their intolerance was greatly reduced with the use of VSL#3®. If you are lactose intolerant, you may wish to start with a very low intake of VSL#3® to see how you respond before increasing the amount.
  3. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    I react to fem dophilous and I "think" other probiotics with dairy. It's been several years since
    I experimented with this. I react to Kefir and yogurt of course.

    I only get horrific huge dark marks around my eyes. I don't react to any dairy with digestive problems. I don't even get antibodies to dairy. My doc said I still couldn't have it.

    Tc .. X
  4. anciendaze

    anciendaze Senior Member

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    Recent activity indicates some people are just now reading a post I made long ago on this thread. I want to emphasize that this is not a for/against vote. My point is that even if you can treat a disease with a particular therapeutic agent it is no guarantee you have isolated the cause. One common OTC drug may be listed as an antihistamine or anti-nausea drug, while I know people who take it to sleep. "Indications" and "side-effects" can swap places on the package literature with no change in the chemical. This also happens with prescription medications, and most doctors are familiar with "off-label use".

    A surprising example turned up when fluoxetine (Prozac) was found to inhibit an enterovirus. A case of "depression" successfully treated with a common antidepressant might have been a viral infection.

    Research based on the idea of a single pathogen, or on major genetic determinants, has typically gone nowhere, both in ME/CFS and in many other chronic diseases. This doesn't mean we are looking at the "many mysterious causes" favored in other research which accomplishes little. I'm now considering ME/CFS as an inherited vulnerability to a fairly small set of pathogens which modulate immune response. Once the response is disturbed, common infections found in the gut or respiratory tract can penetrate a little deeper into the body's defenses, though without necessarily causing septicemia or viremia, where they show up in the blood. This provokes a much larger immune response than the one to the original pathogen, masking the cause. The original pathogen infects immune cells which participate in clonal expansion to fight these later infections. The hidden pathogen benefits from the distorted immune response.

    Treating a variety of infections found active in patients may benefit them -- even if this is not the original cause.
  5. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    Some things that come to mind...

    Wikott-Aldrich Syndrome, an inherited mutation in WAS gene that codes for WASP a cell-signalling protein which regulates actin the stuctural element that allows cells to maintain shape or move. Proliferation, motility & cell adhesion are affected
    => eczema, bruising, bleeding due to decreased size and number of platelets, increased risk of infection due to dysfunction of Immune cells eg T cells, B cells, Dendritic cells, and NK cells. Blood cells & Immune cells are affected. Adhesion & motility of Immune cells is dysfunctional
    .............=> autoimmune disorders & increased risk of lymphoma.
    http://www.signaling-gateway.org/update/updates/200911/nrmicro2252.html

    Listeria monocytogenes (which causes the often invasive bacterial infection Listeriosis ) mimics the WASProtein to hijack the cell's actin, in order to move from one host cell to another.

    http://www.signaling-gateway.org/update/updates/200911/nrmicro2252.html



  6. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    Myeloperoxidase Deficiency (genetic condition) manifesting as Immune Deficiency => increased susceptibility to Candida & other fungal infections.
    Most people with this genetic condition are unaffected, so it is not classified anymore as a Primary Immune Deficiency.

    http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/887599-overview

    Then there are many Primary Immune Deficiencies that can lead to symptoms like those found in ME/CFS.

    http://www.allergy.org.au/health-pr...e-diseases/primary-immune-deficiency-diseases

    Then there are Secondary Immune Deficiencies for exclusion:

    http://www.allerg.qc.ca/Information_allergique/6_2_secondaire_en.html
  7. anciendaze

    anciendaze Senior Member

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    merylg, the inherited susceptibilities I'm looking for are generally much smaller than most of those you list. While I was infected as a child, many patients experience little in the way of problems until they are well into adult life. I'm also cautious about excluding conditions with unknown etiology. Any disease affecting the immune system which goes on for years is very likely to introduce secondary problems. I believe most of us who have been sick for decades have multiple active infections.

    The time to isolate the original cause is during the episode at onset. All current definitions make this essentially impossible. I'm not even certain the pathogen which causes symptoms at onset is the pathogen which causes the chronic disease. Based on a variety of reports, and my own experience, I'm convinced that the time delay between exposure and onset of conspicuous symptoms may be weeks to months. Of course, if multiple infections are transmitted together, as in tick-borne diseases, the time between infection and onset of symptoms may be short.

    There is a pattern of doctors seeing an isolated case, which seems simply weird, then noticing other such cases in their practice months later. If you try to construct a epidemiological tree starting from a "case zero", you often find gaps of at least a month. This could be because of inherent latency in the disease, or it could mean the disease is being transmitted by asymptomatic carriers during this time. The variability in findings once patients become symptomatic looks very much as if they are catching diseases described in technical jargon as "what's going around".

    This points to a change in immune response, since many people enjoyed long periods of robust health before onset, shrugging off common infections. This parallels examples from polio, which early researchers noted. People never exposed to the virus as children, and apparently in peak health, could suffer terrible debilitation if they became infected later, never completely recovering. The search for a cause was complicated because the vast majority of people exposed did not become sick enough to see a doctor, let alone develop the paralytic disease. Those affected had a very specific vulnerability to a once-widespread pathogen. If that virus had not produced huge numbers of virions during acute infection it would have been almost impossible to track down in patients still sick years later. While the virus was common in urban environments the disease was not nearly as prevalent.

    The U.S. epidemic in the summer of 1953 was the last before vaccines came into wide use. It killed several thousand people, and adversely affected several times that number. To keep this in perspective you need to realize that millions of other people lived in the same cities, and many were exposed to the virus. In parts of the world today it is still virtually impossible to eliminate exposure to the virus, yet most people there do not have the disease.

    If polio had not produced conspicuous symptoms in children, and produced periodic epidemics in which cases were tracked in box scores on the front pages of newspapers, it is very likely the medical profession would have shrugged and tackled more common problems first. The rarity of the vulnerability would have disenfranchised sufferers.
    Jon_Tradicionali likes this.
  8. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    This is a bit of a tangent, but I thought it was interesting. NPR has been doing a series of programs on the effort to eradicate polio. There are currently two parts of the world where it still exists - Nigeria and Pakistan/India. India has had no new polio cases in 18 months. When they make it to three years they will be declared polio free.

    I think it was in Nigeria that they were measuring the polio virus in the sewage water to get an idea of how much polio was present because many of the infected people are asymptomatic.
  9. anciendaze

    anciendaze Senior Member

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    I had not heard those programs, Little Bluestem.

    It is encouraging that we have come so far, but don't be too upset if we still fall short. We are talking about a highly-contagious disease in large and diverse populations. Past efforts to eradicate it have produced other hopeful signs, only to have a new epidemic appear. Parts of India and Pakistan are scarcely under the control of the central governments. This is a long-term struggle which has already spanned over half a century.

    What is now being done in Nigeria was once done in the U.S. There are aspects of this story which defy belief. As an example, my mother apparently had the paralytic disease as a child, but never saw a doctor. Paralysis of her legs only lasted a couple of weeks. Her parents didn't take her to a doctor because doctors were expensive and there was no cure. At that time the virus could not even be imaged, because electron microscopes had not been invented. She was not out in the boondocks, this took place in a state capitol.

    She largely recovered, but suffered from post-polio syndrome. This lasted until her death, at which time she was being treated by doctors who had never seen an active case of polio.

    Trying to fit this kind of story into the blanks on medical forms is an exercise in frustration. As another example, when she was admitted to hospital at the end of her life, she was asked if she had ever been around anyone with TB. I pointed out that she was born before antibiotics existed, so of course she had been exposed. This marked me as uncooperative. I also pointed out that she had just been keep in isolation for weeks while tests were run to show that she did not have TB. These were not admissible. We wasted more time on paperwork while she continued to go downhill. She died of complications of a bacterial disease which was definitely not TB. I believe there was an underlying immune problem which was never addressed.

    This was the point where I decided we were witnessing a struggle of patients versus current healthcare systems.
    GcMAF Australia likes this.
  10. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    I am sorry to hear about the problems you had in (not) getting your Mother health care. I wish I could say that I am surprised.
    taniaaust1 likes this.
  11. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    These current outbreaks and sporadic cases of paralytic polio are almost always traced to vaccine strains.

    The virulent virus forms found in sewage waters in Nigeria (and several other countries in Africa and Asia) have also in all cases been traced back to vaccine strains.
    merylg and valdi like this.
  12. beaverfury

    beaverfury beaverfury

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  13. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    lol I'm not exactly sure they have it. They seem okay now. Who knows.

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