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CFS is a Bacterial Infection

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by xks201, May 4, 2012.

  1. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Some abx are used to fix gut problems, i suppose its a matter of not taking them blindly and doing the right things to avoid gut issues.
  2. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    heaps, hey, I am curious, how did you diagnose the staph in yourself and what are the symptoms of your sinusitis? and are you on the doxy permanently for that then? how long have you been taking it regularly?
  3. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    My doc said that staph is in almost everyones sinuses, i tested neg to the common bacterial infections in cfs, mycoplasma etc. My doc came to this diagnoses as i have responded well to doxy. My doc did alot of research into cfs and sinus infections in cfs in the 1990s. Basically cfs/me being immune supressed we are more likely to have staph run wild, staph is an opportunistic infection and is the most common bacterial cause of sinusitis especially in immune defiencies.

    I dont get a typical runny nose like in a sinus infection like a common cold etc. i do get episodes of post nasal drip which is that urge to cough and clear your throat. When sinuses get really bad i dont get any post nasal drip but i think its because my sinuses are totally blocked, when this occurrs my blood pressure will go up. It has been like 160/120 and was tachy, initially i thought it was POTS but it didnt turn out to be that. I get alot of pressure along my eye brows/forehead where the frontal sinuses are and this is where i get really blocked up and i think why nasal flushing doesnt help me much as its too deep to really flush this area, although i do try this. Another big give away to frontal sinuses is waking up with a pounding frontal headache which supposedly occurrs after lying down all night and sinuses back flow into frontal sinus area.

    I have used an abx called zinnet for 2 weeks that got things moving and then doxy 200mg a day, this has helped all my sinus symptoms as well as blood pressure which then normalised. My doc suggested a few months and see what happens but when i stop or reduce the dose to 100mg a day then symptoms return. SO i think i will remain on 200mg doxy a day for a few more months yet. I have thought about looking into surgery to improve sinus drainage but i dont think this is the main issue as it clears with abx. I think its more related to being immune supressed.

    I think most of the infections cfsers get would be controlled by a normal healthy immune system, which we dont have and why many of us have ebv/cmv etc reactivating as well. I just recieved my last nk function test results from january and it shows they are very low, so i would say that this is common in almost all of us. Until there is a way to improve of immune system i think all we can do is go after infections we tested positive for. Sinus infections are just another infection i think many of us are prone too. It wasnt obvious with me that sinuses were an issue so took time to discover it.

    cheers!!!
  4. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    Heaps, I've had sinus trouble for years and years now, and the post nasal drip. Recently I started on beta glucans and a new probiotic(Dr Ohiras) and my sinuses are much much better. Some days now they are completely normal. It's a treat to be able to breathe again!
    dannybex likes this.
  5. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    Just a word of caution, when on long-term doxycycline it is VERY important to take occasional breaks and load up on probiotics (this is recommended by Dr Garth Nicolson who promotes use of abx for CFS). I took doxy for a year and had good improvements, enough that I could work full time again. I thought I was cured. But I did not take those precautions (breaks and probiotics). The problem is that if you don't take a week off about every 6 weeks or so you can get some pretty serious side-effects. I know, I had them, including inflammation in the pancreas (took an ultrasound to find that), serious problems with digestion, carbohydrate intolerance, hypoglycemia, a sudden seizure disorder, and a sudden worsening of my CFS that has not reversed. These problems all emerged within a few days, unexpectedly. So I stopped the doxy for a few years, then tried again, but the original improvement never returned. My suspicion is that the doxy knocks back some of the worse bacteria, such as spirochetes (Lyme and others), but it can not clear them from the entire body, only from the blood. And Lyme and other bacteria get embedded in the lymphatic system. I have wondered whether the doxy actually caused the bacteria to move to safer locations, might be why my symptoms worsened. Anyway, now it is years later and I have found several protocols that have helped give me some improvements that are persisting (multi-B12 and rehydration). I may try abx again sometime, but will be far more cautious.
    sianrecovery, Googsta, Hanna and 2 others like this.
  6. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    I just learned while studying liver function that some bacteria infections in the gut can reverse the liver's phase II detox process. These bacteria produce chemicals (enzymes I assume) that dissolve the phase II conjugation (binding of the toxin molecule to the carrier molecule, often a sulfer, glutathione, or amino acid). This would be particularly harmful in people with weak phase II to begin with (poor methylators, for example), and would free those toxins in the body causing who knows what systems to be dysfunctional. So while CFS clearly is more complicated than a simple bacteria, a bacterial infection, in theory, could be driving other disease processes we know about in CFS.
    Hanna, Little Bluestem and garcia like this.
  7. garcia

    garcia Aristocrat Extraordinaire

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    Yes definitely! I have a C. Diff infection caused by long-term antibiotic use, which makes further use of antibiotics very difficult (since the abx kill of the good bacteria and leave the C. Diff to flourish).

    Also somewhat more worryingly due to having taken several types of antibiotics (for an intracellular infection), I am now left with a drug resistant helicobacter infection (currently active and giving me a stomach ulcer).

    Don't get me wrong antibiotics can be great, but like all drugs they have a downside.

    Just remember that every time you take an antibiotic you are killing off most of the good bacteria you have, and making any pathogens (which you don't kill) resistant to that drug (& possibly other drugs in the same class). Also the bugs you harbour don't particularly care whether you know you have them or not (I didn't know I had a helicobacter infection).

    Good posts from Kurt too.
    justy and Googsta like this.
  8. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    thanks for the info heaps, and others
    I have wondered about sinus infection too after a friend of mine with RA told her doctor she needed to treat it cus of headaches and i wouldnt have guessed she had what I considered sinusitis...I don't get a lot of runny noses (I think there are dif types of cfs, the mucous type and the neuro type :) ) but I get headaches that at times were made worse by lying down

    I don't know if I have heart to try abx again, or if could easily find someone willing to give them actually. Heaps where do you find someone able and willing to test your NK cell? I only had mine tested at WPI a couple years ago, it was classic low but now I don't know if those were reliable labs. Can you get them tested in mainstream?

    I took erythomyocin for rosacea the summer before everything changed (into cfs/fm etc) I was pretty hearty then but I think that erythomyocin hosed me. It was probly responsible for me getting a gallstone, one of the factors, I was really fit and active and muscular and young so shouldnt have gotten one for the classic reasons. So it made me sort of leery of abx, but when I hear success stories I do get intrigued....want to protect gut though. the dentist wants me to take short term abx as part of a periocare protocol and I am not sure I will do it, afraid it could stir something up and then not finish the job. and its amoxicillin. would be for 8 days post cleaning every 2 weeks or so apart for 4 quadrants of cleaning. If i decide to just get the cleanings that often could keep me in a constant flare alone....but I digress
  9. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    Rosacea is a common symptom of gastrointestinal infection with, for instance, Helicobcater pylori or small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.
  10. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Does your dentist want you to take ABX to protect the heart from infection because you have a mitral valve prolapse, or for some other reason? I ask because the Am. Heart Association no longer recommends ABX for those with mitral valve prolapse unless you are having some kind of "deep" work like an extraction. Dentists used to make me take them for any work, but no longer do.

    Sushi
  11. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    My nk testing was done through bond uni in a cfs study. I had 4 tests done over an 18month period. Now that the study is over i cant get these but i might be in another study coming up soon so will be ableto get more.
    I suggest you google the anatomy of the sinuses, when u look at where they are located and if your frontal sinuses are affected u will then see how u wont get much in the way of runny nose type symptoms and waking up with a 'cracker' of a headache is a classic symptom of a frontal sinus infection.I think because i didnt have the classic runny nose was why it took me so long to work out it was my sinuses. http://www.google.com.au/imgres?img...WOlT_zjGq60iQfywfXFAw&ved=0CHUQ9QEwCg&dur=766 http://www.google.com.au/imgres?img...OlT_zjGq60iQfywfXFAw&ved=0CHgQ9QEwCw&dur=6827

    cheers!!!
  12. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I have always thought and after reading about antibiotics that tetracycline abx like doxy or minocycline that they were either effective against a bug or not and that the way they work that bacteria can grow resistent to them. These abx dont kill bacteria but stop them from replicating similar in a way to antivirals do with ebv. Many tetracyclines like doxy are actually used against antibiotic resistent infections like MRSA etc. They are also effective against alot of different bacteria???

    cheers!!!
    xrayspex likes this.
  13. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    thanks nanonug, I dont remember knowing that about rosacea. it comes and goes but does seem related to certain kind of flares systemically.
    Little Bluestem likes this.
  14. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    oh thanks heap didnt see yr reply to my question on nk cell, I asked about it in your other thread on it too, where is bond uni?
  15. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    in australia, they are looking into a diagnostic test for cfs
  16. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    hi adreno,

    Can you tell me why you're saying probiotics don't permanently colonize the gut ? I've been hearng for the last 7 years that they do. I saw 1 study that said they didn't but it was on people with chronic diarhea. I'm assuming they had some kind of infection in which case probiotics were useless. I tried to treat h pylori this way too. No luck ..

    I've heard that antibiotics would kill some good bacteria too
    but I had a strong uti and I wanted to try it anyways. I recovered quickly gutwise after the h pylori treatment in jan so I wasn't too worried about using keflex. kow .. I'm off keflex and working on rebuiding my gut bacteria. I think .. All I know is that it certainly helped my digestion after the h pylori treatments.

    So what's in our guts if not bacteria ? My digestion was good from 2007 - up until I got h pylori and parasites. And it was good after treating these too. I only eat whole foods tho. Mostly raw now.

    Tx .. X
  17. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Can anyone tell me if those who DIDN'T respond to doxy had digestive symptoms ? Maybe
    that's a clue on who will respond. Tx .. X
  18. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    "A number of studies with a variety of probiotic strains have been conducted to determine the extent to which probiotics colonize the intestine. The combined results demonstrate conclusively that ingested strains do not become established members of the normal microbiota, but persist only during periods of dosing or for relative short periods thereafter (Fuller, 1992; Tannock, 1995; Tannock, 1997)."

    http://www.isapp.net/docs/immune.pdf
  19. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Even if probiotics dont colonise the gut permanently it might stop those bad bacteria that arent killed by abx and candida and whatever other bugs are in there from taking over everything, sort of competing with whats there, giving time for the good bacteria that is in the gut to repopulate. Sacchromycce which is a probiotic yeast is known to work this way and helps with inflammation in the gut, diarrhoea, candida etc and competes with bacteria and candida in the gut. Im not 100% on this but just a thought?? Cant hurt to throw it into the mix i guess.

    cheers!!!
  20. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Kurt,

    Of course I can't find the paper now, but I've read several times over the years that some suggest that indeed, heavy antibiotic use may cause infections to move deeper into the body, even to the bones.

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