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cfs and impaired sulphur metabolism

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by leaves, Mar 18, 2010.

  1. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    I think this is very possible, that you get some reactions, but that the nett effect would be positive.
    Always watch out that the "detox" is not in fact caused by something new you introduce.
  2. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    A lot of people need fiber for regularity. Have you ever did a stool test to test for bacterial or parasitic infections?
  3. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    I like my green juice a lot, which I make with one golden delicious apple, one bunch romaine salad and half a cucumber. I also have concentrated pomegranate juice in the fridge. In general fruit juice is fast carbs, so not so good for the system. Good that you eat some fruit, at least it has fiber. I find pumpkin soup also to be nice for the system.

    What are your main complaints beside fatigue and ibs?
    btw wrt to the iodine, you really dont want to be deficient in this, it is important for fighting infections. so try to add in iodine salt later. I have seasalt with added seaveggies in it for the iodine.

    How are you feeling otherwise? Any improvements?
  4. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    Hi Diesel,

    I recognize your symptoms, although I feel more toxic than flu like and dont have a th2 shift. This illness isnt a breeze, is it. Keep me posted.
  5. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    useful link

    Just found another link which mentions copper.

    http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C488839.html

    Serum copper should be checked because high levels can drive molybdenum levels down.

    Molybdenum deficiency may be responsible for sulfite sensitivity since it is a cofactor for sulfite oxidase. Sulfite oxidase catalyzes the last step (sulfites to sulfates) in the breakdown of sulfur amino acids. Sulfite oxidase in this way helps to detoxify sulfurs in the body - particularly sulfites - which are used to preserve food. It is possible that adequate tissue levels of molybdenum keep the sulfite oxidase activity levels high enough to counteract this chemical and reduce potential symptoms; molybdenum deficiency may be a factor in those people who are more sensitive to sulfites.


    The copper issue applies to me: My copper levels were over seven times the safe maximum. I learned from chatting in De Meirleir's waiting room that nearly all CFS patients who get this measured find very high results.
  6. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Diesel -- not sure about foods, but Carlson makes a great molybdenum supplement called Moly-B -- my doc has me taking it 3x a day. (It would help if I could only remember to do so...) Athene probably knows a lot more about this but I thought I'd mention the supp. I'm sure there are other brands out there too.

    It's my understanding that phenols are in the skins, but at different levels in different foods. Leaves probably knows a lot more.

    I've been away from this thread for awhile, so not sure if anyone has mentioned the amino acid GLYCINE, but it's my understanding that it may be helpful in detoxing/and thus eventually being able to tolerate salicylates and phenolic foods/spices. A quote:

    "Glycine also neutralizes chemicals, including salicylates and phenols associated with food intolerance. In the brain it has a calming effect, which has been clinically proven useful against anxiety, irritability, even muscle spasm. In a nutshell, Glycine is a normalizer, facilitating muscle energy production and endurance while promoting relaxation and calm mood. "

    Hopefully Leaves can comment on that. I know when I had amino acid testing done years ago, that my glycine levels were the lowest of any amino acid tested, while glutamatic acid was the highest. argh.

    just my two cents.
  7. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Hi Diesel,

    The foods rich in molybdenum also have copper, so you don't get very far as they compete for absorption. It's best to take a moly supplement. I don't know the one Dannybex mentioned, but I use the Kirkman Labs one. The dose is low, however, and for the max dosage (1000mcg a day) you need ten tablets of it a day, so I am looking for a higher dose brand.

    Foods with lots of copper that you should always avoid are liver (who'd miss that?) and ... sorry... chocolate. It's also concentrated in potato skins, so cut deep when peeling them.
  8. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    Hey Dannybex,

    Yes there is a problem with the glycine; it is needed for detoxification and many are low in it (me too). Nevertheless I do not supplement with glycine anymore. The reason being that glycine can increase endogeneous oxylate production. Many people with autism and i suspect CFS too, have too high oxylate in their system. I have oxylate problems too. It is possible that this oxalate production is causing the low glycine but this is pure speculation. Nevertheless, that is the reason I dont take glycine anymore.
    With phenols; I dont seem that sensitive to it, but many people with autism and therefore maybe also PWC have it.
    I do think it is a good idea to take supplemental molybdenium. One nice multimineral I like is trace minerals by Thorne. Be aware not to take too much molybenium as this can again IMPAIR the detox; dont go above 250 mcg I'd say.
    Oh and dannybex; I read your post about Sam-e a while back. I had a similar experience as you with Sam -E. I am now experimenting with 2 x 800 mg, ill keep you posted.
    xoxo
    Leaves
  9. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    zinc depletes copper, I believe. If you're high in Cu, you might benefit from some zinc.


    Check this site, too, for sulfur, gut h2s and other information. It was pioneered by my friend Ray years before these other doctors knew about any of these topics - most of them ripped it from him, in fact:

    http://www.beatcfsandfms.org/
  10. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Beware of rice as it can be very high in copper. It depends where it grows. Rice is also prone to absorbing arsenic and cadmium from ground soil. You have to make sure you buy a very good brand. I've been told the best is Basmati rice from India, and the worst is Japanese and Thai rice, since their groundwater is very arsenic rich in some areas. But it is all very variable, so yu never really know what you are eating.
  11. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    Thanks for pointing this out Athene!!
    from WHfoods (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=128):

    The arsenic contamination of U.S. rice may be the result of earlier cotton farming, which relied on arsenic-based pesticides. Land previously used to grow cotton is now used to cultivate rice, particularly in Mississippi and Arkansas.

    When rice was first grown in these states, the crops often failed due to straighthead, an arsenic-induced disease. Varieties of rice were developed that are resistant to straighthead, but this increased the risk of arsenic accumulation in apparently healthy grains. The U.S. is currently reviewing all arsenic-based pesticides. At the World's Healthiest Foods, we recommend erring on the side of safety. Choose organically grown rice whenever possible. For any crop to be labeled as organic, including rice, stringent testing of soils for contaminants, including arsenic, must be passed.


    SO this seems to be a good reason for opting for organic rice!
  12. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Diesel,
    I don't really know the deal with mushrooms but they sometimes make me feel quite off and upset my tummy. My son has vomited in spectacular fashion each time I have given him a tiny amount to try.
    Some people say that you react to mushrooms if you have mould or yeast allergy, though I don't know if that is scientifically sound. I do know mushrooms contain a lot of their own enzymes, so maybe that is it? If you have leaky gut then they can get to places they shouldn't.

    I have been looking into essential sugars and I have bought some glucosamine HCI and n-acetly-glucosamine to try out as they are supposed to help repair leaky gut. They are essential to goblet cells, which make mucus in the intestine and defend against harmful bacteria. Glucosamine usually comes as glucosamine sulphate so I hope the stuff bonded to HCI will still be effective.

    That's interesting about how US rice got contaminated, Leaves. It's horrible how modern science ruins our health time and again. Rice is also now in the top 10 most allergenic foods list when as little as 10 years ago rice allergy was almost unknown. I wonder if this contamination is part of the reason?
  13. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    Hi there

    i dont do good with corn. They have high oxalates but one small tortilla should be ok. Hard to say what is causing your symptoms. Mishrooms have amines. What is your own intuition?
  14. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    I recently read in a non English language newspaper that basmati rice imported from India is contaminated with arsenic.
  15. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Diesel, I'm not sure exactly what you mean.... but I think you mean this:

    Vitamin C can be attached to various minerals to make it supposedly less irritating to the intestine than plain ascorbic acid.
    There appears to be little scientific research to support or refute the claim that mineral ascorbates are less irritating to the gastrointestinal tract. When mineral salts of ascorbic acid are taken, both the ascorbic acid and the mineral appear to be well-absorbed, so it is important to take into consideration the dose of the mineral accompanying the ascorbic acid when taking large doses of mineral ascorbates.
    http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/ss01/bioavailability.html
    I guess this is something you have to try out by testing on yourself.

    I used to take 10 grammes a day of timed release vitamin C (along with my moly) and I am pretty sure I absorbed very little of the C. I didn't have any diarrhoea (the usual giveaway sign) but I had bleeding gums and spontaneous bruising and old scars going red, itchy and burning.
    I switched to lypo-spheric Vitamin C (horribly expensive) and take 3 grammes a day and I don't have these problems any more. I am definitely absorbing far more from this lower, but more absorbable form.
    I am hoping to find a cheaper form with the same good absorption, That's the holy grail for me at the moment!
  16. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Unbuffered ascorbics liberate iron and other metal radicals in the liver and really cannot be recommended. Make sure if you are taking a pure ascorbic form of C that it's buffered.
  17. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    High dose vitamin c. Is not recommended as it converts into oxalates. Better stay under 250mg. I dont take any but do eat my fruits.
  18. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Leaves,

    I got your PM mentioning the oxalate thing, thank you -- then went on a google search, and found that yes, I seem to have been eating some foods that are quite high in oxalates, but also found (as usual!) conflicting info that some folks think oxalates (at least from diet) might not be the problem (since we make it in our livers), but that a lack of b-6, zinc, and K2 (etc) are.

    So now I'm really confused. I'm wondering if you've seen this webpage, and the comments mid-page about Catherine Tamaro's Vitamin K protocol, and the 'Phenols, Oxalates, PST, sulfur' section? (the page is aimed primarily for parents of kids with autism, but as some have suggested CFS/ME/Fibro may be an 'austism spectrum disorder...which seems to make sense, at least in some ways, as many of us have this 'overstimulated' feeling, even though we're extremely exhausted?)

    http://www.infantreflux.org/forum/printer_friendly_posts.asp?TID=10636

    I'm fried for now. Anyway thanks for the info...I'd be curious to hear what you think of this.

    And also am wondering if you've ever tried 'No-Fenol' or 'Peptzide' enzymes for phenol/salicylate issues?

    THANKS IN ADVANCE...I'm fried for now. :)

    Dan
  19. lotusflower

    lotusflower

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    I believe I have impaired sulphur metabolism so where I can I get this confirmed in the UK

    Genova Dx does this test for impaired detoxification which I have no doubt,I have as I just seem to get worse no matter what I do, it also measures sulphur metabolism as well as other things I suspect I have.


    http://www.genovadiagnostics.com/fi...erenced_materials/Detoxification_AppGuide.pdf

    But the test is very expensive and Dr Myhill does not offer, where can I find a doctor to order this test or find another tet for impaired sulphur metabolism.

    I've already had the mitochondria function profile and metabolic acid test ,both having everything under the sun wrong, on them but trying to correct has made me worse not better.
  20. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Detoxification Panel discontinued...

    Hi LotusFlower,

    I've been considering these tests too, and a friend has said she'll pay for one (amazing!!!) and so I called Genova, and was told they no longer offer the Detoxification Profile. I guess it wasn't getting ordered very often, plus it is a very complicated test for the patient.

    But I'm currently trying to find out the price of the 'NutrEval' Panel that Leaves mentioned near the beginning of this thread. From what I could find out online at Genova, and also by speaking with the representative, it is very, very helpful in figuring out specifically what one should avoid and what one should take, in order to correct various detoxification issues.

    If you go to this page, and click on "Sample Report", you can see how thorough it is:

    http://www.genovadiagnostics.com/index.php?option=com_gpanel&Itemid=2&task=view&id=42

    Hope this is helpful...for many of us! Thanks again to Leaves for this thread and all the info... :Retro smile:

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