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CFS and Gulf War Syndrome, put it in plain English for me?

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Ocean, Dec 4, 2012.

  1. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    AFCFS likes this.
  2. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    It looks like they compared people with GWI to people with "CFS/ME" and normal people as controls. They got different abnormal results from GWI patients versus CFS patients ... which would seem to indicate that GWI is not the same as CFS.

    But the abstract doesn't indicate that they they're necessarily using a good definition of ME. The researchers are mostly from the US, so Oxford is at least ruled out. But two researchers (Klimas and Fletcher) are very much in favor of the CCC/ICC definitions, so maybe they're using that, instead of the more common (and crappier) Fukuda.

    It would be interesting to see the full text of this, to see what abnormalities were found in ME, and how different we are from GWI patients.
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  3. MishMash

    MishMash *****

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    There was a mass mobilization of US troops during the Vietnam War. Basically, during the eight years of the war there, diesel fuel was used for everything from damping down road dust to clearing brush. The soldiers basically lived around that stuff. Not to mention Agent Orange and other toxins. It was an amazing assault on the immune system.

    But what is suprising is that very few of the Vietnam era servicemembers complained of malaise type illnesses. The ones on disability tend to get it for PTSD. The GW soldiers weren't exposed to nearly as much toxicity, but obviously a very real GWI resulted.

    I have to wonder if it was a new generational sensitivity to immune assaults; that is basically causing the rates of autism, breast cancer and other diseases to sky rocket now. People born between 1945 - 1961 (who were of age during Vietnam) had less sensitive immune systems than the generation that fought in Iraq War One (born 1961 - 1975). Just a theory.
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  4. AFCFS

    AFCFS Senior Member

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    Here is a different take on it: Nerve Deficits May Drive Gulf War Syndrome

    Here is the intro:
    and a little more:
    This helps a little, I think:

    Study links Gulf War vets' illnesses to area of service
    Just a thought - if you have ever read the book "Friendly Fire by C. D. B Bryan" (describes an Iowa farm family, Gene and Peg Mullen, and their reaction and change of heart after their son's accidental death by friendly fire in the Vietnam War) - I recall reading it some time back; what I got out of it, aside from the hurt and frustration of the parents, was that it took close to 400 pages to find out that it actually was friendly fire (the gov was not immediately forthcoming with that).

    - So, it would not be a surprise to someday see that the gov did not immediately come clean with some of the goings on in our recent wars.
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  5. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Thanks I didn't realize that wasn't listed in the abstract, that was what I was most curious about. I didn't think about whether their CFS/ME criteria were accurate, good point.
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  6. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Very interesting. I'm curious how this compares with the CFS/ME population. Many of us seem to have autonomic problems too, myself included.
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  7. Tammy

    Tammy Senior Member

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    years ago a friend of mine who was in the gulf war told me of all the shots/innoculations they had to get before going overseas.............she said she never felt the same after all those shots.............I can't remember what one of the innoculations was for........but I remember there was alot of controversy over it..........some absolutely refused to get it. I wonder how much this might have contributed to GWS????????????
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  8. AFCFS

    AFCFS Senior Member

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    This reminds me of the movie Jarhead (2005): Taking the Pill scene - warning, just about every other word is the "F word."
  9. Wildcat

    Wildcat Senior Member

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    .


    Perhaps you would like to read Professor Simon Wessely’s Evidence to The UK Independent Gulf WAR syndrome Inquiry. The Minutes of the 2004 Lloyd Inquiry.
    UK INDEPENDENT PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO GULF WAR ILLNESSES




    http://www.lloyd-gwii.com/

    http://www.lloyd-gwii.com/admin/ManagedFiles/2/GWI1008%2000.doc

    INDEPENDENT PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO GULF WAR ILLNESSES

    MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

    Tuesday 10 August 2004
    DAY EIGHT


    Lord Lloyd of Berwick, in the Chair
    Dr Norman Jones
    Sir Michael Davies

    THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We have a very full day today, starting with Professor Simon Wessely and continuing with the Right Honourable Michael Mates MP and then Professor Nicola Cherry, who is expected at midday. This afternoon we will hear from Dr Harcourt Concannon at half‑past one, then Dr Pat Doyle at half‑past two and, finally, Dr Tony Hall at half‑past three, by which time I suspect the tribunal will be completely exhausted! We hope to get through all of those witnesses today and that will probably complete our expert evidence, although it is possible we may sit to hear some more expert evidence at the beginning of September.

    PROFESSOR SIMON WESSELY, Called
    1. THE CHAIRMAN: Professor Wessely, thank you very much indeed for coming. You have a busy schedule. Could you start by giving your name and address for the purposes of the shorthand note?

    A. I am Professor Simon Wessely, King’s College London.
    2. THE CHAIRMAN: We have a list of your qualifications here and also various publications. I do not think we need go through them, but perhaps you could just state very briefly what your qualifications are for the purposes of the note?

    3. A. (Wessely): Sure. My first degree is from Cambridge, I qualified in medicine at Oxford, I obtained medical membership at Newcastle, I started training at the Maudsley Hospital, I did my Masters and Doctorates in epidemiology at the London School of Hygiene and I am a Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians, a Fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatrists and a Fellow of the Academy of Medical Sciences.

    4. THE CHAIRMAN: How did you first become interested in the question of the Gulf War illnesses?

    5. A. (Wessely): Well, I do not know if it is helpful to take you through what it was suggested that I do which would answer that particular question. What I was going to do was start from when we became interested in this subject, which was ten years ago now. I am going to follow the old nursery rhyme of old, new, borrowed and blue to try and tease out the various threads of this problem and emphasise that what we are dealing with here is a very complex issue with no single cause. That is a little mnemonic I use sometimes.

    6. THE CHAIRMAN: I am sure that is much the best course. It is entirely up to you how you deal with it, but do bear in mind that the shorthand writer is used to taking down words rather than pictures. Although we can understand the pictures, she cannot get that on to the transcript.

    7. A. (WESSELY) She does not need to get this on the transcript. We are in 1994. This is the first ever newspaper article on Gulf War illness and it got me interested for two reasons. One is that you can see it is a classic story of a young man that goes to war, comes back and then develops strange symptoms. It says, “Once fit. Now I’m tired all the time”. …..


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  10. Tammy

    Tammy Senior Member

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    yes..............I remember her also talking about some pills..........maybe that is what I was remembering that was so controversial.
  11. Wildcat

    Wildcat Senior Member

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    Typical diversionary semantics by Professor Wessely:


    http://www.lloyd-gwii.com/admin/ManagedFiles/2/GWI1008%2000.doc

    (Wessely): 'Well, I do not know if it is helpful to take you through what it was suggested that I do which would answer that particular question. What I was going to do was start from when we became interested in this subject, which was ten years ago now. I am going to follow the old nursery rhyme of old, new, borrowed and blue to try and tease out the various threads of this problem and emphasise that what we are dealing with here is a very complex issue with no single cause. That is a little mnemonic I use sometimes.'
  12. Wildcat

    Wildcat Senior Member

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    On a more realistic note ..........the 'Old, New, Borrowed, Blue' thing that Professor Wessely flamboyantly quotes in his Gulf War Syndrome Inquiry evidence ---- that is not a Nursery Rhyme at all and never was - ... its a wedding tradition that goes .....

    For good luck, the Bride should wear "Something old, something new, something borrowed and something blue"................

    .............As so many zillions of brides have done over the decades ........

    Exacly what wedding traditions have to do with Gulf War Syndrome (????) - well, only a semantics-mad person such as Prof Wessely knows!!

    But then, Professor Wessely does advise the British MOD and NATO!!

    So, nursery rhymes, memonics and semantics are obviously a priority for defence issues and the health of military personel, according to the main civilian medical advisor to the British military. !!!!

    .


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  13. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    Since Drs Klimas and Fletcher were involved in this, I'd almost guarantee the CFS/ME cohort was a good one -- probably patients from the Klimas/Rey patient group.

    When I was at their office last week, Dr K stopped in the midst of her busy day to chat for a few minutes with patients in the waiting room. (What an amazing woman she is!) She mentioned that GWI patients and ME patients look very similar -- same symptoms -- but have different abnormal lab results.

    It appears that that GWI patients were poisoned by organophosphate pesticides imbedded in their uniforms. These "safe" uniforms were not safety tested under the conditions in which they were often used -- in extreme heat and inside chem safety suits. :rolleyes: There is also some question of indirect sarin (also an organophospate agent) exposure when one of Saddam's chemical weapons depots was blown up upwind of troops. So, GWI patients appear to be chemically poisoned by some form of nerve agent. There may also, of course, be contributing genetic or other factors.
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  14. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    I'd love to know how the labs differ.
  15. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

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    You might be interested in this

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