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CDC to Study Vaccines and Autism

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by Bob, Mar 18, 2011.

  1. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    Hi Mark,


    Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed repsonse. This thread was a real butt cheek clincher and I had to take a day off.

    I agree that people can make mistakes, and agree that I exaggerated a bit on a couple points.

    Many good points all around from you, as usual.

    Sure would be great to know the whole truth someday, but I would be somewhat satisfied with quality research that results in effective treatments someday soon.

    Mark
  2. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    And thanks for taking my long response so well, Mark! I was a little worried you might think I was picking on you! Really, it's just my personal interest in the whole area; I've been through this whole big process of thinking all this through and people on this forum in the past have helped bring me back down to earth a bit on these issues.

    The thing of it is, the way the system behaves just does seem so baffling and hard to explain, and concocting a conspiracy theory often seems like the easiest way to explain things. One clincher for me was finding myself, and PR, on the receiving end of a few conspiracy theories. That was a really enlightening experience, because for once I had direct knowledge of the issues being discussed and so I could see clearly how the whole pattern worked, and how the interpretation of events got mangled by the partial information and the sort of guesses people were inclined to make about things.

    The other clincher was realising how many people that I know personally have the same sort of attitudes and responses as some of those we might see as behaving outrageously. Knowing those people personally, I realised that they were decent, honest people, and the explanation for their behaviour lay in their education, their assumptions, the ideas they had got locked into, their lack of imagination - and definitely not in their membership of some shadowy group. TThose people still frustrate me immensely, but at least they helped me to accept that this whole blind spot of the medical system can be explained through sheer human stupidity and inertia.

    I guess it's just the sheer scale of that mass stupidity that's so hard to take in! The whole thing has its own logic, and the trends and themes make things look like organised plans when really they are just patterns of how the system works. I think the reality of ME/CFS is just so much clearer to us, as sufferers, from the inside, than it is to other people, from the outside. We have so much more reliable raw data about how it all works - including, crucially, the proper context for the psychological angles - from our own experience, than other people do when they hear our story second-hand, because they also have to weigh up that information we're giving them against other things they read and hear from other people - stuff that we can easily recognise as nonsense but which sounds quite plausible to somebody who isn't in the situation themselves. It's not much of a leap to realise that the people formulating those silly theories are also just working within their context, and basing their ideas on other ideas that other people have had in the past - consider their context carefully, and it begins to make sense as to how they got to where they are.

    Maybe I should have added that I don't actually completely rule out that there may have been some genuine nefarious deeds along the way! That's still quite possible: mistakes and inconvenient information might well have been concealed, by people who didn't realise or worry enough about the possible implications of those mistakes. That sort of thing could have happened decades ago; the people concerned could be dead by now! There are all kinds of plausible theories involving very small groups of individuals (though none of them are necessary to explain what we observe, so we may as well disregard them). What isn't plausible is a huge, organised conspiracy that means that "who isn't for us is against us". And in any case, the main point is that pursuing those kind of angles is completely pointless and self-defeating. It's tempting, and entertaining, but it's a complete waste of time. We do better to focus on the hard science, and on campaigning on the simple, clear issues where we can make progress: get some proper funding for real research into ME/CFS, apply pressure so that the science is allowed to proceed more fairly and openly, and the rest will sort itself out in the end...
  3. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    IMHO, what they will find one day is that among other potential problematic factors, epigenetics means that repeated vaccinations of generations, sometimes with the SAME strain of pathogen, leads to an icnreasing hypersensitization to the vaccination routine.

    Not all kids WILL normally get exposed ot measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough etc etc etc..36 vaccinations (someitmes ocmbined) for infants, and not through usual methods of itnroduction (lungs, skin breaks, saliva) etc and accompany normal immune responses.
    You do not normally get infected with mumps measles AND rubella at *the same damn time*, if you do, odds are high you'd be one poor sick sod, or even dead. That is an incredible stress factor, hence, epigenetics...

    You cannot find a link between epigenetic build up of risk in a lab without repeated generations of animals getting same vaccine regime.

    And that doe snto include issues with thimerosal (now aluminium) toxic preservatives, squalene as adjunctive agent, and huge threat of contamination by pathogens (see SV40 and possibly XMRV)

    My 2 cents.
  4. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    I tend to agree with your last paragraph quite a bit, if there is some Mal-intentions it is not everybody that is in on it. I would suspect most people are manipulated in a situation like the one we are witnessing, kind of like Bernie Madoff's scam. The reason for manipulation is oh "we need to save the insuarnce companies", or oh "we need to protect the vaccines", or oh whatever. But if one looks at all the evidence, they can see the bigger picture. Not everybody is watching just fox news anymore....:O) I suspect some people unknowingly enabling the special interests are scratching there heads now figuring out they have been hood-winked!

    I also agree getting irrational makes it difficult to solve any problems. However, the WPI side using science(logic). The other side using sloppy rushed science coupled with media spin to conclude contamination and the debate is over. THAT is worse than being illogical, it's criminal. It hypocrasy in it's worse form. If all this hadn't been going on since the 80's, maybe people would be more rational?

    This is not Egypt or Lybia where dictators can stay in charge of government agencies indefinitely. We still have a constitution in this country, and people are waking up.

    Look around the world. Look what just happened in Wisconsin with the republicans voting to strip unions collective barganing rights. That was not just about budget, it was about control and elections. It about whatever think tanks are telling the morons we call elected officials.

    Egypt has figured it out, Lybia, Tunisia. Everybody is waking up. Even us western so called "democracies" are finally waking up.

    Lives and livelyhood are at stake, this debate can't drag on 5 more years while we wait for some CDC vaccine study that determines something crazy like we are all just depressed on injection day.

    Your a good guy Mark, but unfortunately the poor suckers trying to contain the special interests mess are probably dealing with about 25 years of pent up frustration at this point.

    I would suggest the CDC replace some of the worst offenders in positions of leadership, along with some other good gestures. Maybe money contributions to organizations outside of CDC for bio-medical research if they want to continue having a rational debate.

    I personally think it will take a lawsuit to force any real change. In my mind a lawsuit is ONLY thing to be considered rational. Maybe protest in the street would help some.
  5. muffin

    muffin Senior Member

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    Too little, too late - yet again with the CDC...

    Why hasn't the stupid CDC been on this issue for the past several decades? Why NOW?
    This is yet another reason that makes me really believe it is way past time to get rid of the CDC and move their missions to NIH.

    This really burned my bum when I saw it. NOW they are paying attention to something so critical to our children?

    My niece was FOUR MONTHS OLD when she had seizures from a DTP vaccine - Pertusis (Whooping Cough) part. Let me tell you what a horrifying sight it is to hold a tiny four month old baby in your arms who is seizing and trying to make it to the phone to dial 911 and see if she is still breathing. Of course my sister and I had to fight the pediatricians to stop them from pushing the MMR and other vaccines that were NOT do or die since we were terrified that she would die or get Autism or who knows what else awaited her.

    Thanks CDC for nothing. Where the hell have you people been for the last 30 years on so many things??? Time to get rid of the CDC.
  6. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    I agree.

    Ah, you're in the US! Lucky you, with the constitution and everything. :D Go Team America! I hope it's not true what they say, that the political system over there is now completely controlled by a handful of super-rich individuals who pull all the strings no matter who's in power...

    I don't think we actually disagree on anything significant here. Really I just wanted to emphasise just how many of the players in all this are misguided stooges who believe in what they're doing, and how systemic factors can adequately explain the insanity that's proceeded since the 80s. I think it's important when dealing with industry-supported denialists and defenders of scientific progress to realise that many or most (though not all) of them are hopelessly deluded as to the role they are actually playing. Most of these people are just strongly committed to the scientific process in the abstract, and completely disinterested in politics. Many see themselves as completely politically neutral, which in practice makes them rabid conservatives of course. Adding in political factors turns the already complex field they work in into a maze that's way too intractable to navigate, so they just automatically trust the system and their colleagues, who are all decent chaps, and thus they are very easily manipulated by political forces. In general, their defence of the scientific status quo is, in their eyes, a defence of science and rationalism itself against people who are unscientific, irrational and superstitious. Telling such people they are part of a conspiracy, when they (think they) know they aren't, just strengthens their conviction that the world is full of unscientific nutters. Though how you can ever get through to them, if you don't have the means to fund, carry out, and publish your own research, I'm afraid I don't know...
  7. toddm1960

    toddm1960 Senior Member

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    Muffin I think you're missing the point.......THEY WON'T FIND ANYTHING.........they're going to declare the alls clear, no problems, full speed ahead.
  8. Bob

    Bob

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    I've just read the paper that you've quoted Mark, and it is rather concerning!
    How the heck did a synthetic retrovirus escape to live into a number of different cell lines?!?

    There's free access to this paper, here:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2760500/?tool=pubmed

    I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that we are infected with a whole bunch of retroviruses: XMRV, PMRV's, Elaine DeFreitas's retrovirus, monkey viruses, and others!


  9. SaveMe

    SaveMe *****

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    Bob, did I tell you I strongly believe the cause of my ME-CFS was a direct result from vaccines? (my only trigger i can think of)

    "A cellular biologist at Baylor College of Medicine believes that in certain people a genetic component sets off an explosive chain of events. The only thing that had happened was is they took this vaccine and within a month to year, most of these people have completely debilitating fatigue and lifestyle changes."

    But the CDC is doing this to protect themselves, they dont want private entities conducting studies on vaccines because Merck and GSK are a huge part of our economy.
  10. Bob

    Bob

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    Yes, I agree with you SaveMe...
    This isn't something that the US government can easily and cheaply allow to come to the surface.
    They might prefer any evidence to stay hidden.

    I was a health worker when I became ill, and I had just received a number of booster Hep B vaccines in a short period of time.
  11. SaveMe

    SaveMe *****

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    Leading the way for the drug industry was Merck, with $40.4 billion in sales, which put it between Sears and Roebuck and Procter and Gamble in the list of biggest American companies. Merck's profits of $6.8 billion in 2000 were more than the profits of all the Fortune 500 companies in the airline, entertainment, food production, metals and hotel/casino/resorts industries combined!

    And that is just one vaccine manufacturer. The other major one being Glaxo Smith Kline. I was actually over-vaccinated with Engerix B (Hep B). It was an accident by a health care worker. Im 20 years old, by the way. I have heard similar anecdotal vaccine stories.

    This is a very interesting Q&A with Dr Nancy Klimas (New York Times) http://consults.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/expert-answers-on-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

    The Question asked to Dr. Klimas is "Can Vaccines Set Off Chronic Fatigue Syndrome?"

    She responds "Over the years I have seen a number of individuals who have developed chronic fatigue syndrome after receiving a vaccine, most frequently the hepatitis vaccine"

    ...A person predisposed to cfs who is exposed to a big enough immunologic kick could start an immune-mediated process, like autoimmunity, or reactivate a virus or viruses.

    Go figure.
  12. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    Is science in general FINALLY catching on to that every one has different genes so may react differently to something!!
  13. muffin

    muffin Senior Member

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    Very well aware that the CDC will play the usual games and find NOTHING WRONG with vaccines. We ALL know their games but sadly, the rest of the public falls for it.
    I was just irked that they would bother to play this little game so late in the process.
    I really do believe it is time to abolish the whole CDC and move their missions to NIH. That's how disgraceful I find the CDC and all the stupid little games they play and the real work they refuse to do.
    Maybe it is time to start an ABOLISH THE CDC campaign. How many of you would sign up for something like that if I were to put it out on Facebook ???
  14. toddm1960

    toddm1960 Senior Member

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    I didn't mean to pick you out of the group muffin, I agree with you 100%. I'll join your ABOLISH facebook page for sure....... :)
  15. ggingues

    ggingues $10 gift code at iHerb GAS343 of $40

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    I would join also. FYI
  16. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi Tania, this topic is called pharmacogenomics, and while it has its own journal or two, its not broadly understood - even though I was taught this stuff at uni in 2001.

    On example discussed in lectures had to do with a chemical factory. Several percent of the worker population dealing with a noxious chemical got very sick very fast, several percent showed close to immunity. Both these groups had distinctive genes involve detox of this chemical (but I no longer recall the name of the chemical).

    Bye, Alex
  17. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    Well articulated. Exactly.

    And it is probably paralyzing for them to pick up all the subtle abstract details one needs to understand to get the complete picture of how they fit in.

    "I hope it's not true what they say, that the political system over there is now completely controlled by a handful of super-rich individuals who pull all the strings no matter who's in power..."

    It's not just us in the US Mark, I'm sure they exist in the UK. the US and UK Elites(and others?) team up to control everybody else. I think that is how such a small amount of people in the western world have controlled much larger populations, is by collaboration between elites in certain countries.

    They have systematically dismantled western economies in my opinion. You have to read www.nakedcapitalism.com to figure that out. It is a financial blog site that does analysis and allows commentary. I think I can track it back to about the early 80's(it might go earlier) can't explain it all to you here, but keep that time frame in mind as you study everything that has gone on in the world over the last 30 years.

    My brother sent me and my father stuff I considered very fringe on this very topic for a long time. At first I laughed it off, then I started thinking well maybe.... After witnessing it here with my health first hand. I then realized, wholly smokes. It is real.

    Now I see news articles and TV news, and can often spot propaganda, and simply laugh at how much propaganda is thrown at us all the time to control behavior.

    My world has totally changed in about 6 months.

    A good show came out the other day on history channel. It's called "presidents book of secrets". Answered some questions for me as to how much the president controls, and how much is done by lower level staff that may not be elected.

    http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=292536&v=history&ecid=PRF-2104034&pa=PRF-2104034
  18. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    I don't think one could abolosh the CDC, and I'm not sure one should (although there's certainly a case to be made that such an agency isn't Constitutional and such matters should be handled on the State level instead).

    On the other hand, CDC is much more interested in crowd management and publicity than it is in science, and I think there's a strong case to be made for TOTAL REORGANIZATION of not only CDC but also FDA (which in addition to crowd management and publicity is also interested in money and control of patents/markets).

    None of the major goals actually pursued by these agencies are consistent with their charters. Congress is completely ignorant that elected represtentatives are supposed to be holding oversight over federal agencies.

    Maybe, though, the role CDC is supposed to be filling could be done by our universities?

    How should the work FDA is supposed to do get done properly?

    This really deserves a thread all its own. (And probably constitutes a hijak of the current thread). If everyone agrees, could a mod move the pertient posts to a new thread?
  19. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    .........................
  20. omegaman

    omegaman

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    Why does everything with the CDC take five years?

    I love how they say they are going to discuss the feasability of doing a study comparing non-vaccinated vs vaccinated children.

    O.K here's what you do CDC. Get unvaccinated homeschooled children and compare and track them vs vaccinated children. Is that so hard? I know several homeschooled children and adults who's parents did not vaccinate them. It's a matter of desire to do the study and money.

    They are petrified of what they might find and what it might mean.

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