CDC Scientist: ‘We scheduled meeting to destroy vaccine-autism study documents’

[Helen]

FWIW, I would like to add the following about mercury in vaccines. At least one of the researchers in the group, quoted below, is researching what genes/SNP´s are related to decreased ability to detox mercury. According to a lecture on that subject, we hopefully will get to know about which it is , or they are. I assume this will shed light over why a part of the population, regardless to race, will have adverse reactions to vaccines with mercury as preservative, as well as from mercury in amalgam.


Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2010 Mar 15;243(3):283-91. doi: 10.1016/j.taap.2009.08.026. Epub 2009 Sep 2.
Mercury toxicokinetics--dependency on strain and gender.
Ekstrand J1, Nielsen JB, Havarinasab S, Zalups RK, Söderkvist P, Hultman P.
Author information

Abstract
Mercury (Hg) exposure from dental amalgam fillings and thimerosal in vaccines is not a major health hazard, but adverse health effects cannot be ruled out in a small and more susceptible part of the exposed population. Individual differences in toxicokinetics may explain susceptibility to mercury. Inbred, H-2-congenic A.SW and B10.S mice and their F1- and F2-hybrids were given HgCl2 with 2.0 mg Hg/L drinking water and traces of (203)Hg. Whole-body retention (WBR) was monitored until steady state after 5 weeks, when the organ Hg content was assessed. Despite similar Hg intake, A.SW males attained a 20-30% significantly higher WBR and 2- to 5-fold higher total renal Hg retention/concentration than A.SW females and B10.S mice. A selective renal Hg accumulation but of lower magnitude was seen also in B10.S males compared with females. Differences in WBR and organ Hg accumulation are therefore regulated by non-H-2 genes and gender. Lymph nodes lacked the strain- and gender-dependent Hg accumulation profile of kidney, liver and spleen. After 15 days without Hg A.SW mice showed a 4-fold higher WBR and liver Hg concentration, but 11-fold higher renal Hg concentration, showing the key role for the kidneys in explaining the slower Hg elimination in A.SW mice. The trait causing higher mercury accumulation was not dominantly inherited in the F1 hybrids. F2 mice showed a large inter-individual variation in Hg accumulation, showing that multiple genetic factors influence the Hg toxicokinetics in the mouse. The genetically heterogeneous human population may therefore show a large variation in mercury toxicokinetics.

2010 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

PMID:

19732784

[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Ian]

FWIW, I would like to add the following about mercury in vaccines.

Are you one of those crazy conspiracy theorist people? Don't you know mercury in vaccines is good for you?

 

[Helen]

@Ian, thank you for the video although I, as a board member of IAOMT in my country, find irony in this historically sad story a bit hard to deal with as too many people still believe that mercury is harmless in all human bodies.

 

[Large Donner]

Your assumptions and arguments are invalid.

And followup study showed autism rates increased afterwards =/= ...getting the MMR reduces the risk of autism.

I'm sorry I genuinely still don't understand when the after is in "afterwards" in your statement and what the significance of it is particularly in direct respsone to Currers link to the article on Japan banning the MMR. Is the after meant to be after the MMR was banned in Japan. Is your statement trying to claim that after the MMR was banned in Japan autism rates increased or not?

Seeing as you think...

Some of you people are living in an alternate world...

and say peoples comments are invalid without full explanation perhaps you could explain your opinion more clearly in your statement...

And followup study showed autism rates increased afterwards.

.......for the better purpose of the discussion.

 

[Undisclosed]

eerrrrr, yes, especially when the very data you destroyed actually spoke about that link

The data actually wasn't destroyed because Senator Posey said Thompson kept copies. Wakefield and Hooker apparently have copies so why haven't they produced them? I have yet to see this data posted anywhere on the Internet. If you have information that supposedly is a "bomb-shell" that proves something then produce it or stop making shit up.

Why hasn't Thompson been fired, censured, reprimanded for committing a federal crime? Maybe because Thompson actually didn't say anything new at all. It all could be statements he made last year to Hooker and Wakefield about CDC procedures and the out of context statements were fed to to Posey to make it look like something nefarious had happened when it didn't.

Getting back to the apparent cover-up. The information is related to a supposed correlation (which is much different from cause) between MMR vaccination and autism in African-American males of a certain age residing in a certain part of the USA. This original correlation was based on small numbers and disappeared when proper corrections for confounders were made. Hooker reanalysed the study but the analysis was so bad, it was retracted.

So, the leaving out of this data does not mean that the MMR vaccination is even associated with autism especially when the correlation disappeared when proper statistical analysis was applied to the very small subset of African-American males.

I really don't understand the huge cognitive bias and lack of critical thinking skills that leads to the claim that a non-significant correlation that you could only possibly apply to African- American males of a certain age in one part of the USA translates into MMR vaccinations CAUSES autism especially after studies with huge numbers have shown no correlation at all. Even if a correlation did exist in this case, it still doesn't mean MMR vaccinations cause autism because everyone should know that correlation does not equal causation except apparently anti-Vaxers.

So even if the subset was larger and had actually shown a correlation, the results could only be applied to African-American males -- not African-American females, not Caucasian, not Aboriginal not Asian etc males or females. What would be the explanation for that -- I can't think of a sensible scientific reason why a component in a vaccine would only cause autism in males of a certain race. And really results that suggest some kind of race correlation does not even mean that vaccinations are to blame. One would have to dig down into the reason -- genetics, environment, maternal factors etc etc. But since there wasn't any correlation, there is no point making the ludicrous claim that the left out data proved some kind of causation between autism and MMR.

Any ways, this just my opinion, no more, no less and I will now bow out of this thread and will see no further alerts or posts from it -- too busy doing other stuff directly related to ME.

 

[Large Donner]

T

Why hasn't Thompson been fired, censured, reprimanded for committing a federal crime? Maybe because Thompson actually didn't say anything new at all.

Maybe because he currently has whistle blower status at this stage until a full investigation has happened. What happened to Bill Reeves when he "Whistleblew" on the misadventures of the CFS programme within the CDC. Im pretty sure it was nothing.

Secondly, if its true the CDC would have to firstly admit it then fire, censure and reprimand themselves. Then people could potentially end up in jail, then the government would potentially be found guilty of fraud and deception, then the government would have a dilema on their hands of the advice they give out about vaccine saftey, then the government may face enormous law suit payouts, then lobbyists in DC who rub shoulders with politicians and policy makes would be put under the spotlight etc etc etc

Getting back to the apparent cover-up. The information is related to a supposed correlation (which is much different from cause)

Correlation is the beginning of scientific understanding, if you shred data and cover stuff up because you dont like the correlation you cannot go to the next stage of trying to establish a causal link or not.

I really don't understand the huge cognitive bias and lack of critical thinking skills

Neither do I, especially when it comes to blind trust in the CDC. Just look at their track record on ME.

So even if the subset was larger and had actually shown a correlation, the results could only be applied to African-American males -- not African-American females, not Caucasian, not Aboriginal not Asian etc males or females. What would be the explanation for that -- I can't think of a sensible scientific reason why a component in a vaccine would only cause autism in males of a certain race.

Well surely the whole point isn't just to "think of a sensible reason why" and then "if you cant think of one" ignore destroy or cover up data. Thats not the job of an scientific investigator their job is to further examine any given correlation and possibly move onto potential causation. Until the CDC etc start examining the biomedical side of Autism cases they can say all day long that an empirical study, with all the interpretations, problems and biases that introduces, proves x y or z and its just meaningless unscientific "conclusion".

You must be aware of genetic issues making people more susceptible to certain illnesses and secondly are you aware that boys are more like to be diagnosed with autism and there is currently no absolute single answer to why people develop ASD and there could be compounding risk factors including genetic and environmental. Don't you think the same is true in ME? Why is it that some people encounter a virus and stay ill forever whilst others dont? Why can some people smoke 40 cigs a day and live to 90 whilst others die or lung disease at 50? Arent these all normal questions in the total understanding of different diseases.

But since there wasn't any correlation

Not according to William Thompson who was there at the time and claims all the info was covered up. That's the whole point in essence.

 

[barbc56]

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Thomson is either exaggerating or outright lying. But that's my speculation.

It now looks like Thompson has been more biased than previously thought and has been an anti vaxxer for a long time.

The CDC has done some harmful things in the past and it's also done a lot of helpful things. But IMHO, the story that data was deliberately left out is a hugh stretch in logic. IMHO!

Hooker's paper was retracted because he used flawed stastical analysis that favors false positives. He had an agenda before doing his "analysis" which goes against the scientific method. Not saying this never happens with other studies, but I'm referring to this particular one. The reasons the data was left out is stastically valid.

The following links expand on some of the points I've made above.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.or...se-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing/

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.or...liam-thompson-try-to-talk-about-epidemiology/

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/review-of-vaccine-whistleblower-a-legal-perspective/

Barb

 

[natasa778]

Yes, I see, the guy must be a liar then. When all else fails resort to outright character assassasination.

And to prove your point you quote a blogger guy who is well known as a serial exaggerator and an outright liar

 

[natasa778]

Hanna Poling case is the most telling of course, in case people who are interested in the subject are not familiar with it here some details:

Hannah Poling

As was shown in the legal case brought by US neurologist Dr Jon Poling, regarding his daughter Hannah, children with mitochondrial dysfunction can suffer an inflammatory response to multiple vaccines that can trigger mitochondrial damage leading to profound autism. This doctor meticulously documented his case and was awarded compensation of $1.5 million plus $500,000 a year thereafter.

Here is Dr Poling’s response to the highly sceptical Dr Steven Novella, an American clinical neurologist and assistant professor at Yale University School of Medicine and a blogger. Novella is best known for his involvement in the skeptical movement. He had written about the Hannah Poling case on his blog.


Dear Dr. Novella,

... These issues are very complex as we exchanged before and not amenable to soundbites. Regarding your entry on Hannah’s case, your blog entry unfortunately propagates several of the mistakes from the media.
In criticizing the journalism of Mr. David Kirby, you wrote:
“He refers again to the Hannah Poling case, a girl with a mitochondrial disorder who developed a neurodegenerative disorder with “features of autism” after getting a fever from vaccines.”

Actually—Hannah has diagnoses of DSM-IV Autism (by JHU/KKI psychology) and mitochondrial disorder (by two metabolic experts). The only ‘degeneration’ that occurred (along with 6mos of total growth failure) after 18mos of NORMAL development followed vaccination and nothing else! Of course, any ‘scientist’ can obviously point out that temporal correlation in a single case never proves causation. Rule number one of pediatrics though is “LISTEN TO THE MOM.” Are 10s of thousands of autism moms over the last decade suffering from mass hysteria induced by Hollywood? Not likely.

You also noted:

“This special case - which is not a case of autism being caused by toxins in vaccines - says nothing about the broader vaccine-autism debate.”

The only thing unique about my little girl’s case is the level of medical documentation—5 to 20% of patients with ASDs have mitochondrial dysfunction. Many other cases where mitochondrial testing is WNL is because "we never looked" not because the testing would be "within normal limits." Most mitochondrial experts will tell you that the dots of autism and mitochondrial disorders are strongly connected.

Finally, you say:

“The case was settled (not judged in Poling’s favor, but settled) because both sides realized it was a special case that could not be extrapolated to other vaccine-autism cases.”

The case was not settled, it was conceded by medical representatives of Sec HHS. We are obviously pleased with the HHS decision to concede our case, but we had NOTHING to do with the concession. This was a unilateral decision from HHS (recall that HHS is the respondent, rather than the vaccine maker, as manufacturers have blanket liability protection afforded by the Vaccine Injury Program established in 1986) I will not speculate on the obvious question—why concede? Hannah’s case was positioned to set precedent as a test case in the Omnibus Autism Proceedings for potentially thousands of other cases.

With regard to the science of Autism, I have no argument with the assertion that a single case does not prove causation of a generalized autism-vaccine link. What the case does illustrate though is a more subtle point that many physicians cannot or do not want to comprehend (ostensibly because vaccines are too important to even question). Autism is a heterogeneous disorder defined by behavioral criteria and having multiple causes. Epidemiological studies which have not found a link between autism and aspects of vaccination do not consider the concept of autism subgroups. Indeed, in a heterogeneous disorder like Autism, subgroups may indeed be ‘vaccine-injured’ but the effect is diluted out in the larger population (improperly powered study due to inability to calculate effect size with unknown susceptible subpopulation).

I think former NIH Director, Dr. Bernadine Healey explained it best in that population epidemiology studies are not “granular” enough to rule-out a susceptible subgroup.

Furthermore, ‘science’ has not systematically studied the children who fell ill following vaccination to determine what the cause(s) for their adverse reaction was. It would follow that if you never tried to understand why a single child developed encephalopathy following vaccination—you wouldn’t have the first clue as to what aspects of vaccination you could alter which could increase the relative risk of that adverse event (whether it be thimerosal, live virus, or ‘too many’). Could the susceptibility be a mitochondrial genetic haplogroup similar to Chloramphenicol toxicity—sure it could! Why did a few Alzheimer’s patients die of fatal encephalitis following administration of the failed AN-1792 vaccine, but the majority had no ill effects (vaccine didn’t work though)?

Definition: Autism is a heterogeneous systemic disorder with primary neuropsychiatric manifestations due to complex genetic and gene-environmental interactions likely affecting synaptic plasticity early in childhood development. This new theory of Autism is rapidly replacing the ‘old guard’ dictum that Autism is a genetically predetermined developmental brain disorder of synaptic formation/pruning that is set in motion prenatally. By the ‘10 year rule of science,’ your time is about up!

Until the biological basis of ASD subgroups are better understood, further epidemiological and genetic studies regarding “Autism” causation will be relatively meaningless. We need good science to be able to address these complex issues which parallel nicely the emerging story of genetic and environmental influences in Parkinson’s disease. Perhaps some Parkinson’s researchers want to take a crack at Autism?

Recommended SCIENCE reading for the evening:

Altered calcium homeostasis in autism-spectrum disorders: evidence from biochemical and genetic studies of the mitochondrial aspartate/glutamate carrier AGC1. Mol Psychiatry 2008 Jul 8. (The discussion includes thimerosal as a potential toxin that could trigger further perturbations of calcium homeostasis leading to neuronal injury—and in a mainstream Nature publication no less)

Thank-you Dr. Novella and his band of skeptics for continuing the debate.

Dr. Jon Poling
Jon S. Poling MD PhD
Managing Partner, Athens Neurological Associates
Clinical Assistant Professor, Department of Neurology, Medical College of Georgia
Diplomate, American Association of Neuromuscular and Electrodiagnostic Medicine
ASN Certified in MRI and CT Neuroimaging

 

[barbc56]

@natasa778

In this case I would definitely agree with Dr, Novella
His response is below.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/autism-and-vaccines-responding-to-poling-and-kirby/

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.or...itochondrial-disorder-by-antivaccinationists/

Yes, I see, the guy must be a liar then. When all else fails resort to outright character assassasination.

And to prove your point you quote a blogger guy who is well known as a serial exaggerator and an outright liar.

.No it was not an outright character assassasination. Read my post. I said I wouldn't be surprised, given the circumstances surrounding this incident. I also added that I was speculating. I then back up why I think the story is not credible.

However, unless I am not correctly interpreting what you wrote, you make an unequivable character assassasination about Dr. Novella without going into why you think this other than it appears you don't like his opinions.

Barb

ETA

Other resources.

http://blog.minitab.com/blog/advent...y-behind-mmr-vaccinations-and-autism2c-part-1

http://blog.minitab.com/blog/advent...y-behind-mmr-vaccinations-and-autism2c-part-2

 

[Dufresne]

@barbc56
So Thompson was an "anti-vaxer" from the beginning? Well that's some plan: help bury data, wait ten years, and then let the cat out of the bag. Why would a passionate anti-vaxxer sit on this that long? THAT doesn't make sense.

Also, IMO, sciencebasedmedicine is about as useful as quackwatch.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

I'll point out the simple underlying thing that makes EVERYTHING about vaccines utterly untrustworthy:

Our governments underwrite vaccines used on the Public.
This means if there is ever any serious problem with vaccines, the government will be hit with lawsuits costing billions, possibly trillions of dollars. Even in the UK a person who's life is ruined by a problem can get up to £500,000 compensation, very hard with out scum system, but it does happen.
America's system has zeniths and nadirs of justice, and the pay-outs can be enormous.
200,000 payouts at $500,000 each = $100,000,000,000
ONE HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS

Worse, the political fallout would be catastrophic,
it would not matter if the current Administration is at fault or not, an event 30 years ago, proven today, with TV shows with deformed babies, folk with M.E. or whatever it maybe, would destroy the incumbent party's popularity.

and then you can add in the destruction of any trust in the medical profession, and then the ENTIRE "professional" classes who're a bunch of corrupt goon bastards who nearly ALWAYS put their "profession's reputation" over victims.

So, the entire field is untrustworthy
the political forces are so immense that any potential problem, just something they feared might be real, or just the trouble a rumour may cause, is enough for them to cover up to extreme lengths, some would definitely even commit murder for it thought hat is usually only when some middle management flunky arsehole gets "creative" without permission, because the Big Wigs don't like that kind of thing, it causes problems
destroying reputations, offering huge pay rises, senior positions etc all work much better

vaccines do save millions of lives. For serious outbreaks and acute needs they can indeed be vital.
but it is not nearly that simple, not at ALL.
as always Humans take things and go to extremes with them
just like the internal combustion engine, nuclear fission and some others, I'd bet in the long term we find mass vaccination is one of the biggest screw ups we've ever achieved.

 

[Dufresne]

I'll tell you what I don't like:

1.The media burying stories like this one.

2.The idiots are far more focused on genetics than environmental factors. Genetics can't explain the increase in diagnoses, and that's the real issue. The mainstream tried to deny the increasing number for the longest time, citing better diagnostics, etc. But I think most agree at this point there is an actual increased incidence that can't be attributed to genetics.

3.They seem especially reluctant to run the study of vaccinated vs unvaccinated. That's what the vaccine skeptics seem to want. Yet the response to this is "why should we have to prove there's no correlation to an issue that's already settled?" (Maybe to improve vaccine compliance that you seem to be very concerned about.) How much would such a study cost? Wouldn't it be worth it? And if there's no correlation, we can move on to the second most obvious environmental factor, the third. and so on. I don't think they're going about this thing in a rational way. It looks really bad.

 

[Large Donner]

I'll tell you what I don't like:

1.The media burying stories like this one.

2.The idiots are far more focused on genetics than environmental factors. Genetics can't explain the increase in diagnoses, and that's the real issue. The mainstream tried to deny the increasing number for the longest time, citing better diagnostics, etc. But I think most agree at this point there is an actual increased incidence that can't be attributed to genetics.

3.They seem especially reluctant to run the study of vaccinated vs unvaccinated. That's what the vaccine skeptics seem to want. Yet the response to this is "why should we have to prove there's no correlation to an issue that's already settled?" (Maybe to improve vaccine compliance that you seem to be very concerned about.) How much would such a study cost? Wouldn't it be worth it? And if there's no correlation, we can move on to the second most obvious environmental factor, the third. and so on. I don't think they're going about this thing in a rational way. It looks really bad.

Your post is a concise summary of the desired critical thinking skills that show there is no cognitive bias from the people who come from this perspective on the overall vaccine saftey issue. Thankyou.

 

[Ian]

the whole autism thing is truly pathetic. In like 40 years we've gone from 1/10000 to 1/68 and they can't figure out the cause? Are you freaking kidding me. Come to think about it, modern medicine seems to know virtually nothing about what causes most chronic disease, they have plenty of drugs to mask the symptoms though.

 

[Large Donner]

the whole autism thing is truly pathetic. In like 40 years we've gone from 1/10000 to 1/68 and they can't figure out the cause?
.

Insert mantra "correlation doesn't make causation" whilst refusing to look for correlations and ignoring ones you do find.

It correlates to nothing its just a freak of genetic nature. Don't you know its happened to red heads too. Forty years ago it was 3/100 now its like every second person you see is a red head. Aren't they????!!!! .

Or is that just down to "better observation".

Peanuts can kill a small subset of some people but vaccines containing mercury shot into the arms of babies in increasing numbers whose very purpose is to envoke an immune response are "safe" FOR EVERYONE!

Buy the way I wish these peanut allergy people would stop being such a nuisance we never had peanut allergy in my days and all these stupid mothers watching their kids nearly choke to death are just not understanding that its nothing to do with the peanuts its just that choking symptoms tend to come on at the same time as kids get their first peanuts.

Anyway I'm off to do some more tobacco science I've got a job lot of Chinese fags coming in off a boat I need to flog to some blokes down the pub tonight. I'm only small time its a good job the blokes right at the top who make billions from this are more safety conscious and don't have friends in high places to scratch backs with. (Satire)

 

[barbc56]

the whole autism thing is truly pathetic. In like 40 years we've gone from 1/10000 to 1/68 and they can't figure out the cause? Are you freaking kidding me. Come to think about it, modern medicine seems to know virtually nothing about what causes most chronic disease, they have plenty of drugs to mask the symptoms though.

In my first couple of years of teaching, I worked with all sorts of special needs children. Autism was not commonly diagnosed. It was known to exist but there was not a precise definition of the disorder as some of the characteristics overlapped with other disorders. These children were often labled as retarded, pervasive development delays and even behavioral disorders. This also happened with other disorders such as fragile x syndrome.

If I remember correctly, the first student I had with the diagnosis of Autism was around 1988.

The following are quotes from the url below. It's a timeline of the the history of autism. Here are some relevant dates.

1991: The federal government makes autism a special education category. Public schools begin identifying children on the spectrum and offering them special services.

1994: Asperger's Syndrome is added to the DSM, expanding the autism spectrum to include milder. cases in which individuals tend to be more highly functioning

An interesting aside from the timeline is how the movie Rain Man helped provide information about autism.

http://www.parents.com/health/autism/history-of-autism/

Barb

 

[ahmo]

Other voices:

http://www.activistpost.com/2015/08/vaccines-smoking-gun-and-what-to-do-about-it.html
Everyone who’s been working in the field of vaccine safety advocacy feels certain there’s a ‘smoking gun’ analogy that proves vaccines cause damage, including autism. Apparently that ‘gun’ has been found, and it’s smokin’ hot, at least according to CDC whistleblower William Thompson, PhD, and others who have studied the transcripts of the conversations between Dr Thompson and Brian Hooker, PhD.

After listening to Gary Null’s show Progressive Commentary Hour – 8/25/15 with three outstanding guests, Kevin Barry, Esq., Robert W Sears, MD, and Mary Holland, Esq., I decided to share with my readers their exciting discussion....

 

[natasa778]

Buy the way I wish these peanut allergy people would stop being such a nuisance we never had peanut allergy in my days and all these stupid mothers watching their kids nearly choke to death are just not understanding that its nothing to do with the peanuts its just that choking symptoms tend to come on at the same time as kids get their first peanuts.

And in the olden days we were not smart enough and were misdiagnosing it as a 'breath-refusal-syndrome' until some Austrian guy came along and gave it a name, and now it is soooo fashionable and we are soooo good at recognising it, and getting better and better at it every single year for the past 20 years and we will not stop at getting better at it so every year that we diagnose more and more kids it will just mean that every year we will get a little bit better at it. Forever and ever.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

regarding peanuts
it's more likely that because peanuts have such a strong oil, proteins etc and thus have increased NATURAL risk of allergy causing
So, when you add organophosphates to them AND other food, plus other possible issues to a child's early life caused by the modern world
when they get exposed to the peanuts, the risk of allergic reaction is heightened.

Organophosphates and other pesticides/herbicides are hell on wheels nasty.
I wonder what independent testing of peanuts might show of them...and other things kids have to go through nowadays
the idea of "excess cleanliness" might be correct, so, the kids now might be more susceptible to allergic reactions

world's a huge laboratory and Human Race and it's extremes keeps messing things up, constantly, it's not a simple
1+1 = 2, it's a vast web of possible synergistic and epigenetic problems