Phoenix Rising: The Gift That Keeps on Giving All Year Long
This holiday season Jody Smith turns her eyes to the people of Phoenix Rising and gives thanks for you all ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Cd4/Cd8 inversed due to rise in Cd8

Discussion in 'Immunological' started by sorin, Dec 2, 2015.

  1. sorin

    sorin Senior Member

    Messages:
    319
    Likes:
    112
    Hi!

    Does anyone know what means a high value of Cd8 (1058) while Cd4 is 654.
    The Cd4/Cd8 ratio is in my case 0.61 while normal should be >1.
     
  2. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,884
    Likes:
    4,609
    @sorin i believe high CD8 means viral infection

    i also have it but no one seems to want to address it.

    a specialist once said, "it means virus.". and said nothing else.
     
    heapsreal likes this.
  3. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes:
    5,313
    Mine is a bit low too (0.86) and I have a chronic enterovirus infection.
     
  4. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    8,828
    Likes:
    8,078
    australia (brisbane)
    Cd8 is commonly elevated in ebv cmv etc. Used as an educated guess to say those viruses are active along with other tests and symptoms. I used this test several months apart before we thought it was cmv and decided to treat with avs. I didn't have viral titres available to me.
     
  5. Jeckylberry

    Jeckylberry Senior Member

    Messages:
    125
    Likes:
    412
    Queensland, Australia
    Since the CD4 is ok they probably don't worry about the CD8. It's only when the 4 is down that they will see cause for concern. CD8 is an immune cell that has been made to attack a single target, not necessarily a virus. An increase in these means that the body is in the process of fighting a known particular infection. If you have something you know you are fighting it will confirm it. MECFS seems to leave people prone to constant infections so it is an unsurprising result.
     
  6. sorin

    sorin Senior Member

    Messages:
    319
    Likes:
    112
    I tested for CMV both IgG,IgM and viral load PCR. When I received the result for IgG it was written IgG>500 (!!!) where the limit of the device was set to 500 and positive was any value >1. The IgM=0.23 <1 (normal).
    I am very surprised by that IgG value>500. Could this be an error?
    Then I did the CMV viral load which was not-detectable. So does that mean that currently I am not infected with CMV?
    I tested for EBV and it was shown
    Anti-Epstein Barr VCA IgM 10 U/mL
    Negative: < 20 U/mL
    Anti-Epstein Barr VCA IgG Positive (4.8) Positive: index > 1.2
    So would that mean I am not currently infected with EBV, too?
    Then the body is fighting against what virus?
    I should test for enteroviruses, too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
  7. sorin

    sorin Senior Member

    Messages:
    319
    Likes:
    112
    I do not know what the body is fighting to. I tested for CMV, EBV, HTLV, HIV, Borellia, HSV and nothing was found. What to search for next time? Enteroviruses?
     
  8. sorin

    sorin Senior Member

    Messages:
    319
    Likes:
    112
    What is your Cd4 respectively Cd8? What specific enterovirus was found?
     
  9. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    8,828
    Likes:
    8,078
    australia (brisbane)

    It comes down to an educated guess. My cfs started with ebv and cmv mono. Several yrs later i tested totally neg to ebv as in apparently never had ebv?? Maybe not producing antibodies to ebv. Cd8 was high as well as total lymphocytes which we tested a few times several months apart and decided to try antivirals. Improvement from antivirals is what nailed down this diagnosis but it could also be 2 infections with vzv as i had a shingles outbreak when off avs and shingles rashes flare up with general viral symptoms since being back on antivirals .

    I got lucky as it was straight forward to many. Oh, also low nk function also make it quite possible that these viruses reactivate as well.

    Always worth testing for further infections etc
     
  10. Jeckylberry

    Jeckylberry Senior Member

    Messages:
    125
    Likes:
    412
    Queensland, Australia
    When I say the CD8 cells are responding to a known virus I mean that one set of them have been made by the body for one type of infection. You could theoretically have more than one set attacking different infections. They are specific. **(edit) they may have a test to see what they are specific for but I'm not sure. I know the routine test is done with antibodies**. It is not a new infection but one that has been going for a while or chronically. If it was new you would normally have a high neutrophil count.

    When you have IgG it means that you have been infected some time ago and there are still antibodies in your system form that time. IgM is produced during an infection then after the initial antibody response the antibodies change from M to G which are smaller molecules. So, reading your results, you have certainly had CMV in a big way as there are so many. Also EBV as there are antibodies to it. If you had EBV but there were no antibodies found, that just means that you have low numbers of, or no antibodies. You will certainly still have Ts and Bs that remember it. They just haven't spat out antibodies for some time. You may not be fighting a virus. It could be anything, candidiasis, for example, but with high CD8 it is something familiar to your body.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
    sorin likes this.
  11. sorin

    sorin Senior Member

    Messages:
    319
    Likes:
    112
    What if a "blind" medication with antivirals is started, even if it is not known what specific infection triggered the CFS? Does it worth to start such a treatment considering the potential side effects? Would such a medication have more benefits or would deteriorate even more the health status?
     
  12. sorin

    sorin Senior Member

    Messages:
    319
    Likes:
    112
    In this doc "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - A Roadmap for Testing and Treatment" https://sites.google.com/site/cfstestingandtreatmentroadmap/
    it says:
    "Dr A Martin Lerner says that a diagnosis of cytomegalovirus infection is made by examining the CMV IgG antibody titer. (Lerner says the IgM titer for CMV is inaccurate and insensitive.) The higher the CMV IgG titer, the greater the viral load.1"
    This seems to be not accurate in my case. As I wrote above I have a very high IgG for CMV but none viral load! So, something seems to be wrong here. Any comments?
     
  13. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes:
    5,313
    CD4/CD8 Ratio (0.92-3.72) 0.86
    CD4+ Lymphocytes % (30.8-58.5%) 31.9
    CD4+ Lymphocytes # (359-1519/uL) 734
    CD8+ Lymphocytes % (12.0-35.5%) 37.3
    CD8+ Lymphocytes # (109-897/uL) 858

    Specifically echovirus 30.
     
  14. Jeckylberry

    Jeckylberry Senior Member

    Messages:
    125
    Likes:
    412
    Queensland, Australia
    Sorry, @sorin, I have edited my last post. I'm not sure if they test CD8 for specificity routinely. I will have to find out.

    The higher the load, the more antibodies are produced. No idea why the test would be dodgy for IgM but if Dr Lerner is an expert in CMV in people with MECFS then he has some reason. It does show you have had a major contact with it. The IgG stays in the system for years but not at those levels so, at a basic level, it suggests a recent infection of a few weeks ago.

    I'm not sure about the viral load test results. The article you posted says that IgM results can't be trusted and that a high IgG suggests a current infection, not an old one. This would suggest you have CMV at the time of testing. In the light of this I'm not sure what the viral load tests say about this. These are aimed at finding the active virus in the blood but they didn't detect any. Hmm.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
    heapsreal likes this.
  15. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,884
    Likes:
    4,609
    @sorin my advice is to not rule out Lyme until you get the LTT ELISPOT test. trust me on that!
     
    Jeckylberry likes this.
  16. Jeckylberry

    Jeckylberry Senior Member

    Messages:
    125
    Likes:
    412
    Queensland, Australia
    Except if you are in Aus because they mostly don't believe in it here.
     
    heapsreal likes this.
  17. sorin

    sorin Senior Member

    Messages:
    319
    Likes:
    112
    I will do that. I put it on my TO DO list. Also I saw there is an Epstein Barr Vius LTT Elispot and a Citomegalovirus LTT Elispot. Should I try these two also? Does anyone know what is the difference between CMV IgG,IgM , CMV PCR and CMV LTT Elipsot? I mean if my CMV PCR viral load shows undetectable does it make any sense to do CMV LTT Elipsot or should I just STOP searching on CMV? Would it be possible that CMV LTT Elipsot to show something different than CMV PCR? I do not understand what new features adds CMV LTT Elispot compared to CMV PCR viral load. The same questions for EBV.
     
  18. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,884
    Likes:
    4,609
    @sorin the LTT ELISPOT does not rely on antibody production or finding the pathogen in the blood. i think they use anitgens of the pathogen and see if your lymphocytes react(?) or something.

    i dont know anything about how good this test is for ebv or cmv; all i know is, i was completely negative for Borrelia at every lab for decades (even Igenex), but positive on the LTT ELISPOT.
     
  19. sorin

    sorin Senior Member

    Messages:
    319
    Likes:
    112
    Oh, this is quite scary. That means that the antibody tests are not reliable. If you were negative to IgG and IgM that means these tests are unreliable (and extrapolating I can think that the existing HIV tests could be in the same manner unreliable until a new, more sophisticated test appears and can show positive what the other tests showed previously negative).
    On the other hand, you had the tests that showed you are negative and then this test that is completely opposite and says that you are positive. How did you decide to trust the LTT ELISPOT and not the other ones?
     
  20. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,884
    Likes:
    4,609
    @sorin ...i dont know if i trust it per se...i just had no other choice. i was close to death, dangerously suicidal, in agony, had tried years of antivirals... even tried HIV meds....antibiotics were the only thing left to try. and they helped significantly.

    i wouldn't extrapolate to HIV; if you had AIDS all this time, you would be declining a lot faster than this (or you wouldnt really be sick at all, if you were an elite contoler). also, your CD4 count would be a lot lower without HIV meds
     
    Valentijn and heapsreal like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page