CBT ineffective for somatoform disorders and medically unexplained physical symptoms (MUPS)

[chipmunk1]

Anecdotally this was suggested by a psychiatrist to one of our members - ECT is the next step when CBT does not work.

Not even the worst treatment...

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3153711.htm

Calls for wider use of psychosurgery for depression

There are patients everywhere in Australia who may benefit from this treatment

http://psychosurgeryorg.blogspot.it/2006/02/psychosurgery-in-australia.html

Psychosurgery is still carried out on one or two people a year in Australia. In 2002 the Radio National programme “All in the Mind” featured a discussion about psychosurgery. Taking part were Melbourne, Victoria, neurosurgeon Professor Jeffrey Rosenfeld; and former Chair of the Victoria Psychosurgery Review Board Beth Wilson.

Jeffrey Rosenfeld stresses the differences between lobotomy and modern operations, while Beth Wilson defends the early practitioners of psychosurgery.

Beth Wilson: They saw the incredible suffering of people, particularly in the southern States of America, Negro soldiers who were languishing, not able to go home, hideously ill, very little treatment. The treatments comprised straightjackets, seclusion, insulin shock and electric shock treatment, that was it.

Sounds like a caring and empathic psychiatrist just trying to help misunderstood minorities. ECT is also a way to show their love for mankind.

 

[JAM]

Anecdotally this was suggested by a psychiatrist to one of our members - ECT is the next step when CBT does not work.

I saw that after my last post, absolutely infuriating!

 

[alex3619]

I saw that after my last post, absolutely infuriating!

Its something that I think might qualify for specific and public advocacy.

 

[jimells]

Wow. I that doesn't describe any of the professionals I have worked with. When used properly I have gained great benefit from working with them. .

I have been to more therapists than I can shake a stick at, starting with high school in the early 1970s. Except for perhaps one, they were useless. At least two were much worse than useless, having filled the record with distortions of what I actually said, and making it harder for me to obtain disability benefits, or even finding a lawyer to take my case.

I'm glad you have found therapists that have helped. That seems to be rather rare around here.

 

[Snowdrop]

Wow. I that doesn't describe any of the professionals I have worked with. When used properly I have gained great benefit from working with them. You seem to have quite a large chip on your shoulder.

Being treated with such utter contempt and inhumanity by medical professionals over decades might do that to even the most angelic personality. It's no joke, if you are extremely physically ill and bullied by the people who are entrusted with helping you get well.
Some people are really not in a good position to complain directly to their abusers (or they do and get more abuse). We get worn down by the trying. It takes it's toll.

 

[JAM]

Being treated with such utter contempt and inhumanity by medical professionals over decades might to that to even the most angelic personality. It's no joke, if you are extremely physically ill and bullied by the people who are entrusted with helping you get well.
Some people are really not in a good position to complain directly to their abusers (or they do and get more abuse). We get worn down by the trying. It takes it's toll.

Trust me, I get that. I've had chronic pain since the day I was born and was told for the first 36 years of my life that I was faking it and it was all in my head, but never once by the psych community, only by the medical community. The psych community tried to help me deal with the trauma and find solutions. Even after all that, I still would never suggest that all docs are evil.

 

[alex3619]

Without having read the full paper it is hard for me to comment, but I am betting even this study probably failed to take into account flaws that are patently obvious in the PACE trial.

This is a HUGE study. I do not know when I will be able to more than skim it, and definitely don't know when I will finish reading it.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

Trust me, I get that. I've had chronic pain since the day I was born and was told for the first 36 years of my life that I was faking it and it was all in my head, but never once by the psych community, only by the medical community. The psych community tried to help me deal with the trauma and find solutions. Even after all that, I still would never suggest that all docs are evil.

All it takes for evil to triumph, is for good people to do nothing

And that's exactly what the medical profession has done.
Yes, there are good folk, but if the profession' s leadership and certain areas wasn't over all "evil" (selfish), them the routine fact of cases like Sophia Mirza, women with MS before the introduction of MRI scanners etc etc would not have happened!
My mum was partially paralyzed by an accident working as a nurse then a toxic x ray fluorescent dye the British system covered up it's harm for decades, so psychs said it was "all in her head"
well major back surgery, removal/fusing of vertebrae and discs, and arachnoyditis were "all in her head"

The pile of crap from the medical profession I got are down to those bastards.

By default, the profession is arrogant, inhumane and staffed by sociopaths way beyond the norm.

medical profession = a RELIGIOUS organization in nature, not scientific.
Normal science doesn't blame the universe if it finds "scientifically unexplained symptoms", instead they study more, build new instruments for detection/measurement etc.
Not how the medical profession and especially the psychs act, psychiatry is a cult.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

You have a seriously twisted view of reality.

No, I have seen evil at work too often in too many ways and don't deny it.
You are either naïve or lucky in experiences in life.

Most people are decent, anywhere
But, power corrupts....

Hugely important lesson in life for *anyone* and it s as true today as when written thousands of years ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog

Simple, but true.
There is no use appealing to the "Better natures" of scumbags and psychopaths, because they do not have one!

 

[adreno]

The pile of crap from the medical profession I got are down to those bastards.

By default, the profession is arrogant, inhumane and staffed by sociopaths way beyond the norm.

medical profession = a RELIGIOUS organization in nature, not scientific.
Normal science doesn't blame the universe if it finds "scientifically unexplained symptoms", instead they study more, build new instruments for detection/measurement etc.
Not how the medical profession and especially the psychs act, psychiatry is a cult.

Well, I guess any kind of infantile propaganda goes on this forum, as long as you're against the medical community. I see no point in following this discussion anymore. Enjoy.

 

[Bob]

Well, I guess any kind of infantile propaganda goes on this forum, as long as you're against the medical community. I see no point in following this discussion anymore. Enjoy.

I don't entirely agree with Silver, esp as I've worked in the NHS myself, but I'm sympathetic to some of what he says. Rigid group-think and arrogance is rife within the UK's medical profession. In the UK, we've had two cases recently where parents were arrested because they disagreed with the UK medical profession and took their child to another European country for treatment. Charges were later dropped or they were aquitted. (One parent had a child with CFS: The mother was arrested because she took her daughter to a doctor who prescribed her hormones such as cortisol. She was accused of poisoning her daughter. After the mother was arrested, the daughter was detained in a mental health hospital because of the stress caused by her mother being arrested.)

I'm not surprised that Silver's got such low opinions of the medical profession, seeing as he's an ME patient based in the UK. Remember that, however ill we are, there is absolutely no treatment available for us. Some of us find helpful doctors who help treat our symptoms, but we often get greeted with a shrug and a grunt by our doctors, if we're lucky. If we're unlucky we get treated with disbelief or disdain and ushered out of the surgery for being time wasters. Our illness is widely inappropriately treated as a psychological problem within the NHS, because of a total lack of understanding about the illness. We are routinely inappropriately prescribed CBT/GET as a treatment.

Most of us have had negative experiences with the health profession, and some of us have had extremely negative experiences. When you go to someone who is supposed to help you, but you implicitly get inappropriately accused of being a time-waster or someone with a personality-disorder, it is harmful and distressing especially when at a particularly low point in your life, when feeling vulnerable and bewildered because of the severity of the illness. Many in the UK have reported being permanently harmed by GET that was prescribed to them early in their illness, before they understood the illness. So the medical profession permanently harmed them instead of helping them. How are they supposed to feel about the medical profession after that? If we're extremely unlucky we get forcibly detained under the mental health act, by a profession that wilfully misunderstands the nature of the illness. And remember, it doesn't matter how ill we are; we get treated the same: zero treatment, a total lack of understanding, often disbelief, and sometimes disdain.

And these experiences are widespread in the UK. I know many people who have commonly had, or still have, negative experiences with the health services. After some appalling experiences, and many years of indifference or neglect, when at a time in your life when you are most in need of support and compassion, such experiences can shape your outlook, and form your opinions. So I'm not surprised that Silver has these opinions.

 

[adreno]

@Bob, I am not much impressed with your defence. Perhaps you think I am not aware of maltreatment by doctors? That does not equate to everyone being a cult of evil psychopaths. If you enjoy reading his rants, that's fine with me. Just ask yourself how productive they are, and how many intelligent people want to engage in discourse here, with that kind of tone.

 

[Valentijn]

@Bob, I am not much impressed with your defence. Perhaps you think I am not aware of maltreatment by doctors? That does not equate to everyone being a cult of evil psychopaths. If you enjoy reading his rants, that's fine with me. Just ask yourself how productive they are, and how many intelligent people want to engage in discourse here, with that kind of tone.

Maybe it would help to think of it terms of spousal abuse. When someone has been abused for a long time in a relationship which is supposed to be nurturing and supporting, they rarely come out of that relationship with a normal outlook on life. Some women in that situation might fear all men as a result, and maybe even hate them as well.

It's irrational for the victim to think that way, but it's also a natural outcome of long-term abuse. While we don't get physically beaten by doctors, the bad ones can have a very harmful emotional impact upon us, and there is also considerable medical neglect, and even physically harmful mistreatment in the case of GET.

So while I strongly disagree that all doctors or even psychotherapists are bad or evil people, I can see where the sentiment is coming from, and I can't blame the person who feels that way as a result of being abused for a long time and as a result of seeing others abused. The sad irony is that bad treatment based on psychosomatic therapies is resulting in PTSD and other psychological trauma for which many of could use supportive psychotherapy. But it usually either isn't available or it turns into "cure your ME" CBT.

 

[adreno]

Maybe it would help to think of it terms of spousal abuse. When someone has been abused for a long time in a relationship which is supposed to be nurturing and supporting, they rarely come out of that relationship with a normal outlook on life. Some women in that situation might fear all men as a result, and maybe even hate them as well.

It's irrational for the victim to think that way, but it's also a natural outcome of long-term abuse. While we don't get physically beaten by doctors, the bad ones can have a very harmful emotional impact upon us, and there is also considerable medical neglect, and even physically harmful mistreatment in the case of GET.

So while I strongly disagree that all doctors or even psychotherapists are bad or evil people, I can see where the sentiment is coming from, and I can't blame the person who feels that way as a result of being abused for a long time and as a result of seeing others abused. The sad irony is that bad treatment based on psychosomatic therapies is resulting in PTSD and other psychological trauma for which many of could use supportive psychotherapy. But it usually either isn't available or it turns into "cure your ME" CBT.

Fine. But it is all completely besides the point. I am not interested in someone's personal psychology, but interested in a nuanced debate without non-productive ranting. Since it seems I'm the only one of this opinion, I will refrain from joining in these types of threads in the future.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

I didn't say all doctors or psychiatrists are evil !!
As a *group*, and to a extremely unpleasant degree in percentage of members, the profession here in the UK, are rotten bastards.
it's par for the course with Humanity.
See the crap with the Vatican, Westminster, police in many US area, etc etc.
Many are attracted to these professions/area with noble or decent goals.
However, Human psychology (ah the irony ) always bloody warps groups towards self interest, supporting the group above all, etc.
They become very "conservative" in outlook (in specific sense not politics).
They resist change, they fight tooth and nail against over sight or being held criminally responsible for their actions etc.

From what I've seen, the psychiatric side of things seems especially to attract those with aberrant personalities.
here in UK, many doctors come, or did, from well to do upper middle class families, who could afford the lengthy university fees/time.
However, such families, as anyone with experience of the "profession/upper middle class" of Uk should know, have a high tendency to being malign bastards. Again, Human psychology
That group in a society tends to be the most envious, grasping of all, and often riven by inhumanity hence you get a lot of sociopaths...or, they are able to go the other extreme and have wealth/chances to be very humane.

The Medical Profession here in UK is still very Victorian in outlook.
Ask female doctors for their experiences for example.

Another issue is that the arrogant sods forced junior doctors to work diabolical hours and conditions that are illegal for anyone else. Junior doctors until just recently frequently got lumped doing 90 to 120 hour shifts!
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...-of-risks-over-culture-of-long-hours.23509238
because the utter pricks who are "consultants" are often the most incompetent, arrogant ratbags you'll ever meet
"Oh we had to do those hours so they can too!"
While consultants refuse to work at weekends etc, causing real problems for accident & emergency wards and patients.
Maybe that culture of long shifts led to high rates of mental health or lack of humanity problems in the profession?
And not once did those VERMIN consider that you'd never ever trust say an HGV driver, a pilot after 90+ hours ofo work per week, would you? So why the HELL should someone who's got lives in their hands be trusted/forced to do that? Jeesh.

Not an issue of the "NHS" per se though groups always have problems, it's problem of the very sick British "establishment" ensuring that things weren't cleaned up in the profession, see similar vile and stupid crap resulting in politicians, cops etc who're beyond the law.

My experience is that maybe 1/3rd of doctors are decent people. 1/3rd are either skilled but not very caring or just not very good at either (i.e. barely competent and so they rely WAY too much on "conventional wisdom" of their culture, tings their profession accepts, not facts of medical science), and 1/3rd are utter ratbags and/or grossly incompetent and dangerous.

Younger doctors seem much better, currently whether because of different teaching methods or not been corrupted by the system etc I don't know.
Consultants and GPs have higher ratios of scumbags than A&E docs.

 

[chipmunk1]

psychobabble itself is not very productive nor intelligent.

I am not necessarily a Thomas Szasz fan but at least he was one of the few truly honest psychiatrists not afraid to tell the truth about his profession.

as he put it:

Institutional psychiatry is a continuation of the Inquisition. All that has really changed is the vocabulary and the social style. The vocabulary conforms to the intellectual expectations of our age: it is a pseudo-medical jargon that parodies the concepts of science. The social style conforms to the political expectations of our age: it is a pseudo-liberal social movement that parodies the ideals of freedom and rationality.

Virtually anything anyone might do in the company of another person may now be deemed as psychotherapeutic. If the definer has the proper credentials, and if his audience is sufficiently gullible, any such act will be publicly accepted and accredited as a form of psychotherapy."

Psychiatric expert testimony: mendacity masquerading as medicine

 

[Bob]

Fine. But it is all completely besides the point. I am not interested in someone's personal psychology, but interested in a nuanced debate without non-productive ranting. Since it seems I'm the only one of this opinion, I will refrain from joining in these types of threads in the future.

We all need to have a rant at times, and we're just trying to help you understand why someone might have such opinions as Silver's. You can use the 'ignore' feature, if you find any individual posters unhelpful.

 

[Snowdrop]

@Bob, I am not much impressed with your defence. Perhaps you think I am not aware of maltreatment by doctors? That does not equate to everyone being a cult of evil psychopaths. If you enjoy reading his rants, that's fine with me. Just ask yourself how productive they are, and how many intelligent people want to engage in discourse here, with that kind of tone.

I'm intelligent. As are the others here and I'm fine with it. This forum is for thoughtful debate yes but it's also for a group of people who have no voice (not one that's listened to) out there in the world among the status quo established medical community and beyond.

I am not here at PR to provide a balanced reasonable defence for the group of people that have done so much harm to so many.
And continues to do so to the point of considering greater harm in the future rather than help us. This is not their forum.

If there was some one individual Dr or medical researcher who I felt I had some knowledge of and they were being personally maligned and I thought it was unfair I would defend them individually but as a group (representing various institutions) they do not deserve even fairness. This is because they have all the power and there are already a great many things in place to defend their position.

It's not a new idea to think of corporations a psychopaths nor do I think it is off the mark. As has been pointed out on other threads institutions are about politics not serving the public. Just as you can turn a bunch of college students into an brutal mob it is easy for individuals to leave their humanity at the door when told to do their job. That is psychopathy.

For our situation here, not all Dr's are evil. But are you wanting to defend on an institutional level the horrors that could be visited on any one of us (and has been and not just with regards to ME).

Horrible medical tortures have been visited on the vulnerable and not just in the distant past. Here is a brief quote from a new thread started by REN:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/psycho-neurosurgery-question-notes.33593/

Aetna insurance lists "somatoform disorders" with conditions for which cingulotomy is considered experimental/investigational. Aetna refers to the "Consensus on guidelines for stereotactic neurosurgery for psychiatric disorders": "Nuttin and associates (2014) noted that for patients with psychiatric illnesses remaining refractory to 'standard' therapies, neurosurgical procedures may be considered" (14).

They have the power. We don't. If we were having this discussion as part of a dialogue with those institutions then I would say that it's necessary to modify the tone. But that's not what this is. We are not in a dialogue with them even if individuals might show up here because the threads are public. They have no right to expect consideration here. And they already think we are psychiatric cases. Reasoned, fair, thoughtful and intelligent discourse hasn't persuaded them otherwise so far.

And thanks for thinking we're all unintelligent for not seeing things your way. There is nothing wrong with ranting when there is so much abuse.

 

[Gijs]

Psychiatry is NOT SCIENCE! It reminds me of Rosenhan's study 'The Thud Experiment'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

I don't take psychiatry seriously.

 

[Sean]

Aetna insurance lists "somatoform disorders" with conditions for which cingulotomy is considered experimental/investigational. Aetna refers to the "Consensus on guidelines for stereotactic neurosurgery for psychiatric disorders": "Nuttin and associates (2014) noted that for patients with psychiatric illnesses remaining refractory to 'standard' therapies, neurosurgical procedures may be considered" (14).

Anybody who is not terrified by this clearly has not understood its implications.

This is nothing more than a very powerful and highly problematic profession completely refusing to confront their limitations and failures, and restrain themselves.

They are so dishonest and cowardly about this that they would rather destroy us than admit they are ignorant, let alone wrong.

Compassionate science-based medicine? My arse it is.