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CBS Protocol

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Bdeep86, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. Bdeep86

    Bdeep86

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    Can someone link me or tell me if there is a good place that had a good method to control a CBS mutation. Thank you!
  2. Patrick*

    Patrick* Formerly PWCalvin

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    California
  3. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Patrick's links are what I would have posted. You might also try mthfrsupport.com, where there are some good tips.

    Just a note about using things to balance out ammonia, one of our concerns. I started with yucca, recommended by Yasko. I used tincture since I didn't want the starch. But it tastes awful. Then someone mentioned ornithine, a tasteless amino acid. It's replaced yucca for me. Also butyrate, mentioned by someone in PR. Sterling Hill of mthfrsupport was where I learned about using lysine to help detox sulfur. I use it both in footbaths and orally.

    Re food, I've eliminated all thiols from my diet, but still include small amounts of meat. A good place to learn about this, and a different viewpoint from Yasko/Heartfixer is from Andy Cutler:
    http://livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/food/high-sulfur-sulphur-food-list/

    Also, here's a long and extremely useful thread re sulfur:
    http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1053485/sulfur-sensitivity

    cheers, ahmo
  4. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Thanks for the info Ahmo.
    That second link has some contradictory information in it about sulfates. Sulfates are the end product of the trans-sulfuration pathway. The process of sulfation in the liver is part of detoxification. But raising sulfates will NOT help with the cbs related flux nor lower sulfites.
  5. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    Did you stop taking yucca only because of the taste? Did it work for you?

    Which butyrate do you take? (I found this one, but haven't bought it yet) Are there any side effects?

    Thanks
  6. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    The more reading I have been doing the more I am leaning towards ornithine. That and manganese for control of the urea cycle. But for those with herpes infections, EBV, CMV, etc. be cautious in how much you use relative to lysine.
  7. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Thanks for clarifying this. This link was in my early efforts to understand sulfur. I still wouldn't be able to find the mis-info you caught.

    Also, re lysine balance, that's really interesting that there's a connection. I'm also taking manganese, away from my other minerals as I've heard either Dr. Klinghardt or Kamsteed has advised. ahmo
  8. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I'm not receiving emails when these posts are added. I got dbkita, but not your's. :-(

    I don't have any measurements to judge whether this has been working, except self-testing. The yucca added to the unpleasantness of having so many supps to take. It wasn't as bad as my awful experience w/ MMS, but really off-putting. When I started the ornithine, I no longer tested + for yucca, so my sense is that this is doing at least the same job. I've just ordered my second bottle of Nutricology Butyraid from iherb. ahmo
  9. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Was the manganese advisory because of antagonism to iron absorption? Just curious.
  10. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    My recollection is that it's to be away from zinc.
  11. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Understood.
  12. AVS

    AVS

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    I've just started taking yucca, molybdenum, Yaskos CBS/NOS support, and charcoal (at nights on occation) and I haven't noticed any difference yet. My urine sufate strips test about 800 for the first morning urine and then it drops from about 200-400 in the after noon and night. Does anyone know what time we should be testing our urine sulfate and or have suggestions on supplementatio? Also, I am +/+ for MTHFR 677 and was wondering if I should be taking methylmate B (or any other active folate) while I am trying to get my sulfates down?

    Thanks
  13. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    AVS, the references I've seen for sulfate testing suggest testing weekly. My understanding is that the need for us to correct the methylation cycle is of the highest priority. I'm taking a lot of supplements, including B vits. These all contribute to the sulfur/thiol burden. But I've eliminated all foods of this category, with the exception, by some definitions, of small amounts of meat. I've tested consistently >400. My testing was only after 4-5 months without hi thiol foods. I've been slowly implementing Freddd's protocol. Each of the elements of the "Deadlock Quartet" has been critical for me, both in improving daily experience, and in over-dosing with subsequent symptoms. Freddd may well be at some core truth in his belief that the B12/folate dysfunction may well be at the heart of many of our illnesses.
  14. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    400s on the urine sulfatea consistently should be more than fine. I would not get hung up on test numbers. How do you feel?
  15. AVS

    AVS

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    Thank you everyone for the input, I really appreciate it. I feel okay, I do feel " foggy" and forgetful some days but I can't pinpoint any one cause. I am mthfr 677 ++ and SHMT +/- and I've noticed that I get more foggy when taking SHMT spray and methyl mate B. I am also starting to think that molybdenum gives me a headache. I don't mind these symptoms if they are detox but my concern is that I may be spinning certain wheels while others are stuck and am feeling adverse affects because I haven't totally treated the CBS a d I am losing everything down the transulfuration pathway. Any thought on that?
    Thanks
  16. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    The CBS homozygote you list in you signature is the A360A +/+. That is not the C699T mutation that is correlated with increased trans-sulfuration flux (which is only a 10-15% bump anyways, the 10x upregulation is a faulty meme perpetuated by the Yasko followers that is simply wrong). Dr Yasko is to my knowledge the only one that sees A360A relevance to clinical observations and I am pretty sure she considers A360A to be the much less severe of the two. If I am wrong in that regard then she and her camp are about the only ones on the planet who do.

    If you see my VDR alleles thread you will see that Dr Yasko is 100% wrong in calling your VDR +/+. You in fact have the wild type. She has since altered notation to be TT to be in alignment with the rest of the research community. There are a lot of people on these forums convinced they have a mutation in VDR when in fact they have the wild type haplotype.

    For comparison I am homozygote CBS C699T, homozygote SHMT, five heterozygotes MTRR, and four homozygotes BHMT with a heterozygote MTHFR A1298c (wild type C677t).

    If I were you I would worry a LOT more about your MTHFR mutation.

    While you may have sulfur sensitivity issues for other reasons, it seems really, really unlikely that your homozygote A360A has much significance for trans-sulfuration by itself. More important might be to rule out sulfur sensitivity, sulfite problems via faulty SUOX processing, but most important of all the methylation cycle itself with you homozygous MTHFR. At least that is my opinion.
    Lotus97 and Philla like this.
  17. Philla

    Philla

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    interesting advice concerning homozygous CBS A360A. Thank you for expressing your clarifying point of view.

    Let's say that one has additional BHMT mutations (hetero- or homozygous) along with a CBS A360A ++, wouldn't that increase the load down the transsulfuration pathway causing more ammonia and sulfate/sulfite, therefore creating a "net" CBS C699T upregulation, due to increased sulfur and ammonia floating around? Just speculating of course ..

    In my case, the increased ammonia would probably burden the partly dysfunctioning MTHFR A1298C even more, and possibly my MTR/MTRR mutations would put a huge load on SUOX processing sulfites into sulfates.. This is at least something I can relate to, given my problems with dysbiosis and processing sulfur.

    But this won't probably be that much on an issue for AVS, due to "cleaner" SNP chart, no MTHFR A1298C and only one MTR/MTRR mutation.

    Still trying to solve this jigsaw puzzle :) Correct me if I am wrong, which I probably am ...

    Best regards,
    Philip
  18. AVS

    AVS

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    Wow, this is awsome (these are my first few posts). I am so grateful for people like you who are willing to help me understand. I am so into learning more about methylation and I couldn't have asked for a better place.

    dbkita, thank you for your insight on the CBS A360A. I was trying to make that a priority issue after reading "heartfixer". I noticed that Dr. Roberts had a +/- A360A and he was treating it as his first priority (he did also have an SOUX defect so that may have been a contributing issue). Anyway, in heartfixer they are all about both CBS defects being a priority. I notice that in Yasko methidology she doesn't focus on 360A as much as the 677T. I was concerned with my CBS ++ because my father had a heart attack at 52y/o and I believe he has passed on the APOe 4 (I am APOe 4/2, Pamela McDonalds work on lipid/cholesterol clearing) and the heart fixer guys really fix hard on the fact that CBS upregulation is a huge contributor to heart disease by causing a free radical response from ammonia, alpha keto glutarate, and other excitotoxins when homocycteine escapes down the transulfuration pathway. I also figured that my BHMT 4 and 8 were contributing to the CBS problem as well.

    So would you suggest then that I tone down my treatment on my CBS A360A and move on to treating the MTHFR C677T and SHMT? I do understand that I need to address that C677T but I was waiting until I got my CBS under control because I read that it may be worse to treat methlyation intermediates with out first addressing CBS because of the fact that you may lose everythiing down the CBS pathway.

    Again I am really excited to have someone to talk to about this. I really appreciate everyones help.

    Just for reference here is what I currently take daily:

    Fish oil (epa dha), resveratrol, vit C, vit D spray yasko, ultimate B complex yasko, CBS/NOS support yasko, molybdenum, yucca, charcoal (every once in a while b/c of constipation), probiotic, pancreatic enzymes (pork glandular) by Nutricology,

    on occasion - GABA, nettle, magnesium, potassium

    I have Methylmate B (active folate), MTHFR caps (liver support), SHMT spray, Methylcobolamine B12, Hydroxycobolamine B12 but I am holding off because I want to make sure that the CBS is not an issue.

    Thank you all so much

    Andy
  19. caledonia

    caledonia

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    AVS - SHMT and CBS are First Priority mutations, so you would treat them first. Your CBS is the minor one, and your sulfate strip results are ok, so I think you can skip that one. You're not reporting getting a stress/anxiety response from methyl supps, so that's an additional clue that it's not a problem.

    Then you would go onto the Second Priority mutations - MTHFR, MTRR and the rest.

    I have the C699T CBS mutation +/-. My urine sulfate was 1200 to start with. I had a cortisol/stress to response to even 1mcg of methylcobalamin. I did everything that Heartfixer said to do for CBS, except I used the Cutler free thiol list for diet: http://livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/food/high-sulfur-sulphur-food-list/. I also didn't alter my intake of meat, because I really need it. It probably took a little longer than most, but it still worked for me. After 6 months, I don't need my CBS supps any more except for 1 drop of moly, and some of the co-factors like boron. I can eat whatever I want. I'm tolerating much larger amounts of methyl B12 with no problems.

    Note: for those taking yucca, I did ok with taking two pills a day instead of sprinkling it on my food at every meal (because it tasted funny).
  20. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Just for the record, I had a very wired and toxic reaction to the molybdenum, when I tried it a couple months ago. I rarely do well with minerals, (excpet the basic electrolytes), probably because of my heavy metal burden.

    My CBSA360 mutation hasn't interfered with my taking B12, so I am going to pass on that.

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