1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
ME/CFS: A disease at war with itself
We can all agree that ME/CFS is a nasty disease, particularly in its severe form, but there are abundant nasty diseases in the world. What is unique and particularly confounding about our disease is that so much controversy surrounds it, and not only surrounds it, but invades it too.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

CBS/ACAT & Bile Salts?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Star-Anise, Jul 25, 2013.

  1. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

    Messages:
    205
    Likes:
    111
    Hi there, can anyone give any feedback with using Bile Salts (which contain cholic acid) with CBS status? I am worried that the cholic acid might be related to choline, which I need to avoid due to my CBS & BHMT +/- statuses. I know that even Dr. Yasko recommends moderation with the avoidance of sulphur groups; however, the avoidance of sulphur (other than meat in moderation) was a major game changer (yay!) & led to a big recovery in my fatigue!

    I do however, have a ACAT +/- mutation which I feel is quite active, that I have been supporting with Vitamin K, as well as Krebs cycle supports. And I notice that my energy plummets after eating larger meals, which I generally try to avoid due to this issue, but is somewhat unavoidable as well. This has led me to think about the addition of Bile Salts to help with my ACAT situation.

    Any thoughts people with CBS issues could share would be wonderful. Of course I can always try it and see! Ha ha, but trying to gather information as much as possible before jumping in. When I was more ill, and had active gallbladder issues (I have a large-ish stone that I have chose just to manage instead of having gallbladder removed) I did take Bile Salts, which seemed to help with gallbladder pain at the time, but I did not notice any big change in my energy.

    Thank-you so much in advance for your feedback.
    All the best,
     
  2. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    210
    Star-Anise, I don't have any info for you about your questions, but I am homozygous +/+ for ACAT and I'm wondering where you found your info on how to address your heterozygous +/- for it.

    Was it in some Yasko material? I must confess that I've read several of her publications, but retained little because I knew I would need to return later to it when I could take notes.

    All Heartfixer says is, "ACAT is involved in cholesterol and energy metabolism, helping to mediate the conversion of foodstuffs into biological energy. ACAT dysfunction may lead to B12 deficiency. Right now, I do not understand ACAT well and am not sure how important this is."

    I think someone did recommend to me that I should take bile salts, but I don't remember what for (what mutation). I have not tried these.

    I've been taking Vitamin K as a supplement (for the first time ever) this week, as part of trying to recreate a multi-vitamin/mineral with individual supplements. I am glad to read in your post that it might be good for ACAT.
     
  3. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

    Messages:
    6,692
    Likes:
    10,142
    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    There is 0 research about that SNP. The odds of it being relevant are pretty small (AA is common in some populations - up to 20%). You might as well roll a die or use your horoscope to decide if it's having any impact at all.
     
  4. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    210
    You're not keen on astrology? Well, knock me down with a feather. :p

    ---
    I see two smallish samples where it's around 20% (both marked "Asian"), and two smallish ones where it's around 14% (one marked "Asian", and the other is Chinese people who are living in Denver, so basically also "Asian"). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/SNP/snp_ref.cgi?rs=3741049.

    Otherwise, the T/T / A/A is pretty unusual in other ethnicities/geographies.

    --
    As an aside, it is becoming slightly disturbing when I search for things on Yahoo and my own PhoenixRising posts are showing up at like number 4 in the search results, as one does when I type in this SNP's "rs" number! :eek:

    --
    About this SNP, SNPedia says, "Plays a major role in ketone body metabolism. Defects cause a 3-ketothiolase deficiency." How do they know that, if there has been no research on this SNP? (Just wondering, not being challenging!)
     
    Star-Anise and Valentijn like this.
  5. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

    Messages:
    6,692
    Likes:
    10,142
    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    That's in the same paragraph with the Yasko interpretation, so it's just part of the Yasko interpretation (which acts like any SNP on a gene is relevant). When it's real info based on real research, that research is cited.
     
  6. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    3,039
    Likes:
    1,711
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    Again, the SNP has to be expressed to cause problems. Just because 20% of the people have the SNP doesn't mean 20% will have gallbladder/kidney stone problems. There are also environmental factors, such as the amount of oxalates in the diet.
     
    Star-Anise likes this.
  7. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

    Messages:
    205
    Likes:
    111
    Bluebell
    HI there, yes, I did find the information in Yasko's book. I'll post a summary below:
    What I know for sure is that:
    • I do have an interrupted Krebs cycle. When I started to supplement with Magnesium Citrate, which Yasko says can help feed into the Krebs cycle it was like BINGO - energy. Yes, this could have arisen from the Magnesium itself, which I agree, it did, being that Magnesium is a cofactor in methylation, and I believe I likely have a deficiency in Magnesium as well. My main issue has been energy, as I'm sure many people's issue is. As well, I have post-meal fatigue. I used to take all kinds of digestive aides, HCl, and stuff, which I felt definitely helped at time, but then I developed a stomach ulcer, which from all tests did not seem to be H. Plyori, so I stopped the enzymes as my naturopath at time indicated that they too could be hard on the stomach lining if taken in excess. I didn't notice that my fatigue post meals increased or decreased following the cessation of the enzymes at the time.
    • I do have a greater tendency to experience gut dysbiosis and imbalanced flora. I thought for sure that I was going to have MTHFR A1298C, which I do not.
    • I too have tried Vitamin K. When I first started it again, it was like BINGO - a mild increase in energy. This seemed to subside after a few days, so I hypthesized that I was just hitting another block. I'm still taking it, because it helps with Calcium absorption, & I feel it helps with my energy as well.
    • I recently broke my ankle, yep it's awesome, not! Ha ha:) Needless to say when I started taking Silica, which helps with Calcium absorption as well, I had this awesome calm feeling. Apparently Silica helps with aluminum detoxification. My body just loves the stuff.
    • My doctor was so amazed when she saw my cholesterol. She said that it is the lowest that she has ever seen for people that are not on cholesterol lowering medications. I'm not sure if this related to ACAT or adrenal function as an adrenal naturopath that I was working with said that this is not uncommon for individuals with adrenal fatigue.
    • I can't use ALA due to my problem with sulphur. Causes +++anxiety, heightened adrenal response (same as with onions/garlic).
    • I've tried CoQ10 a long time ago with no response to potentially increasing fatigue response. This, however, was before I was even close to finding/understanding/implementing methylation information. Same for Curcumin, & Quercetin.
    • I'm COMT -/- and VDR +/- so I should have some tolerance for methyl donors, and right now my body is doing well on methylfolate 200 mcg (split into 2 doses), and 500 mcg (split into 3 doses). I took methionine in past with good results (increased energy), but then it started to make me more fatigued, and then agitated. I have a hunch I started to have methionine in excess at that point. Same goes with SAMe.
    • I'm definitely going to look at trying a bile salt in a small dose. I am worried about potential interference with sulphur metabolism, but perhaps the pros might outweigh the cons. I am finding that despite strict avoidance of high thiol foods now for a couple months, I'm still having to do charcoal flushes every few weeks. My hunch it's due to the meat, which I'm eating daily still, or possibly just my sulphur stores still clearing out. Who knows.
    • I have ordered Lactoferrin in. I have a very negative response to any kind of dairy. Even supplementing with acidophilusis impossible for me for the most part. Apparently, it shouldn't cause problems for dairy sensitive, but I've been down that road before.
    • I've tried Vitamin E Succinate and have correlated it to an increase of fatigue. I'm wondering if it is related to potential aluminum detox symptoms. I haven't tried it with the Vitamin K, or the methyl B12, methylfolate in place though, so perhaps it was just causing a block somewhere that may be ameliorated with the other supplements. Not sure.
    • In regards to Benfotiamine (which I think is Vitamin B1-Thiamine). I used to take this "pre-sickness," as it seemed to be the health trend at the time, with no noticeable differences, but then again, this was the only supplement. My hunch is that all these supplements have a synergistic effects are are more effective when taken together. Same goes for Riboflavin and pantothenic acid. I'm thinking maybe I will reintroduce these again. Especially because my naturopath had told me that B5 (pantothenic acid) was critical for adrenals, and mine are weak.
    • I was thinking of policosanol, but apparently it's used to lower cholesterol naturally and my cholesterol is already so low. Plus, it seems to be made from sugar cane, and that is one of foods that makes me go crazy (histamine/allergic like response), so I have steered clear of that for right now.
    • I haven't had my taurine levels measured. But I wonder if my AHCY mutations are helping me here:
    Looks like I have some experimenting & figuring to do... I'll post back if I have any breakthroughs :) xoxo
     
  8. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    210

    Star-Anise, thank you for your detailed information and update. It is helpful.

    Oh man, that is bad news about your ankle. I wish you a quick recovery!
     
  9. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

    Messages:
    6,692
    Likes:
    10,142
    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    Yes, but thus far there's no indication that that SNP does anything, ever. The vast majority of SNPs have no impact, ever. Just because it's on a certain gene, does not mean that it impacts the functioning of that gene.

    Unless there is research showing otherwise, it's safer to assume that an SNP is irrelevant - the alternative is to assume that every unresearched SNP you have is having some sort of bad impact upon you, which is rather ridiculous. Without research in the matter, you don't even know if the less common version is harmful or protective (assuming it's anything at all)!

    Trying to read something into SNPs which have no research about them is pointless. It's unscientific, and the odds are that the wrong conclusion is being reached. I was being serious when I said roll a die - but pick one number on a die with at least 100 sides, because that's about the odds you're looking at of this SNP being relevant to even a tiny extent.
     
  10. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    210
    These are not the only 2 alternative assumptions that can be made:
    1. assume that an SNP is irrelevant
    2. assume that every unresearched SNP... is having some sort of bad impact

    It is not wise or 'scientific' to assume that everything that is not currently understood/researched is harmless and irrelevant. It's overly-simplistic and actually dangerous to make that assumption.

    The only logical assumption is:
    Anything that isn't known for certain (and science mainly deals in theories, taking no conclusion or fact entirely for certain, so basically that means "anything and everything in life"),
    including topics that haven't been studied yet -- or topics that have only been studied a bit, or topics that have been studied a lot already --
    might turn out to be:
    not harmful/irrrelevant
    harmful/relevant to all people
    harmful/relevant to some people

    Most things are not entirely figured out, even when it is thought that we know a great deal about them, and no presumptions can be made about what future research and experience might uncover.

    It's a Valen-die! :)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Géode_V_3_1.gif
    (in motion!)
     
    Star-Anise likes this.
  11. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

    Messages:
    125
    Likes:
    85
    Hi Star Anise,

    Any luck with the bile salts?

    I have the same question. I am ACAT +/- and CBS +/+. Although working with the protocols has really improved my health, I seem to have momentarily plateaued. I need to take more glutathione (GSH) to get more energy (wow that stuff works) but if taken in too high a dose, I get diarrhea, I am assuming from the ammonia produced when the GSH gets broken down. (I get diarrhea from other things that would up my ammonia. B6 for instance). So I would at least prefer to fix my gut before I make the final GSH push. Anyhow, so I took some ox bile the past day, but I feel fuzzy in a way similar to when I've had too much sulfur. How did it go for you?

    And has anyone heard of or tried bile salts conjugated just with sodium or some such? I think the issue for me is that many of the Bile salts were conjugated with taurine or glycine....producing sulfur and ammonia when broken down, respectively. But I have read that bile acids are potentially rather dangerous.
     
  12. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

    Messages:
    205
    Likes:
    111
    @calebtrask
    No I didn't have any luck with the bile salts. They were just too stimulating for me.
    I used some digestive aides for awhile, but then I found that same fuzzy head thing would happen too with them too after awhile. So I decided to stop, and bam, my digestion was way better then it has been for a long time. But I'm generally quite disciplined with the food combining.
    I tried the glutathione orally (small dose) & I was off this planet overstimulated! It was kind of fun though, cuz I had all this energy to finally clean my house, but boy, was I the biggest b****! :p

    I agree. This seems to make sense to me. Because I figured that the glycine was the problem factor in the digestive enzymes...! I haven't tried any conjugated bile salts though.
    For awhile I also used some ginger to stimulate bile. I know persons with gallstones are advised against using ginger for that reason (could trigger too much bile & try to push stones out). But I found it did create the same tired/wired feeling after awhile, so I haven't reintroduced or tried it since.

    Luckily (fingers crossed) I seem to be out of the woods with my digestion. Strict food combining & adhering to very strict dietary choices (avoidance of anything that triggers fatigue - the ++++paleo diet!) has helped my post-meal fatigue combined with the fact that I think I'm overall just getting stronger, so eating/digesting doesn't wipe me out so much.

    I do still have problems with stools however, IBS like symtoms, so I know on a gut level things are still disrupted. I've been using Lactoferrin - which seems to help. My naturopath says it's a powerful anti-inflammatory. Yasko recommends it for the ACAT. I also have found that the IV Vitamin C treatments help, probably for the same reason - anti-inflammatory.
    I have decided that 2014 is going to be the year of gut for me, lol :) And this is going to be one of my big focuses is to try support another layer of healing for my tummy! :)
     
  13. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

    Messages:
    171
    Likes:
    25
    Rome,Italy,Europe
    I found very helpfull Digest Gold by Enzymedica it is far superior to all the other stuff i've tried like houston's enzymes etc etc
    For me it's making a big difference in terms of digestion
     
  14. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

    Messages:
    171
    Likes:
    25
    Rome,Italy,Europe
    it has a lot of Lipase in one capsule (4000 FIP) wich is far more than any other enzyme supplement..i was using Houston's trienza and zyme prime but i felt a little change (then i discovered why..they only have 500 fip lipase per capsule) when i passed to digest gold the difference was clear in my stools and my not bloated anymore belly
     
  15. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

    Messages:
    125
    Likes:
    85
    I didn't know that about ginger...interesting. Ya, I do lemon juice when I wake up, at least 15 min before I eat and that seems to feel good. And I do hcl and digestive enzymes, including digest gold, plus licorice tea (to protect my lining) with food.

    Huh, I hadn't noticed that about the comparative lipase count. Good to know.

    But my bile question was more because bile is supposed to stimulate ACAT, and mine is apparently not working so well. I have low cholesterol too, and I wonder if that is causing some problems.
     
  16. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    564
    Likes:
    213
    I haven't had genetic testing, but I can't handle thiols. I had never heard that one should avoid choline if you had sulfur issues and started taking last spring after reading a paper about it being good for nonalcoholic fatty liver. I didn't know if I had fatty liver, but I had symptoms that pointed to liver congestion. I don't think I've ever taken a supplement that made such a big difference in my digestion as choline did. Not that I can eat sulfur foods yet, but I can eat some purines.

    I also have good results with silica.
     
  17. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    564
    Likes:
    213
    Star, you could just take an herb that increases bile flow.
     
  18. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,423
    Likes:
    1,018
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    I've had wonderful results with Chanca Piedra, AKA "Breakstone". Started it when I had severe gb cramping. Continue it for liver/gb/kidney support. When my stools have been pale, I take extra and it shifts almost immediately. ahmo
     
  19. South

    South Senior Member

    Messages:
    145
    Likes:
    91
    @calebtrask Can you explain what this means - I'm trying to understand what effect taking Taurine supplements might have on my gut, and found your comment:
    "many of the Bile salts were conjugated with taurine .......producing sulfur...when broken down" Did you find some info somewhere about taurine reacting with bile? And somehow producing sulfur?
     
  20. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

    Messages:
    125
    Likes:
    85
    Hi South,

    Thanks for checking on it...as I research it further, I see that I probably made an over-generalization.

    Much of what I got, I got from wikipedia, which seems to cover bile acid / salt synthesis in humans. This chart seems to indicate that, for our purposes, it is the same in cows (from whom I get my bile salts supplement.)

    Basically, our bodies create four kinds of bile acids in the liver. Before they are excreted, most of them are conjugated to either taurine or glycine. Taurocholic acid, for example, is a conjugate of Taurine and Cholic Acid.

    This is where I made an assumption I should not have. Taurine is a sulfur-containing amino acid. However, in Taurine the sulfur is connected to oxygen, not hydrogen (as it is in Methionine and Cysteine). This conversation says that this would make it less reactive than thiols (sulfur plus some hydrogens). But it seems like taurine is only a problem for some people with sulfur sensitivity. However, since CBS causes us to produce a whole lot of taurine, I would hazard a guess that maybe the CBS +/+ people might have taurine sensitivity, while people with issues breaking down thiols might have just the "normal" sulfur sensitivity? Anyone with CBS +/+ have feedback?

    From what I can tell of the wikipedia page, Glycine degradation seems to lead to the formation of ammonia--which is also a problem for those of us with CBS. But I don't know enough to know if this produces enough ammonia to be a problem.

    So ya, there is a lot of biochemistry and variables between "taurine contains sulfur" and "taurine causes problems for me that looks like a sulfur issue." And thanks to your question, it is more clear to me now that even if I am right about what is happening for me, it may not play out that way for someone else.

    I feel like I didn't fully answer your question, but I suppose that is because I don't know.

    Still, aside from the whole sick thing, it's kind of fun to be in the wild west of medicine. Although I suppose I only think that now that I'm getting better.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page