The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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CBD oil improving energy, causing anxiety

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by hmnr asg, Jan 27, 2018.

  1. hmnr asg

    hmnr asg

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    Hi there,
    I am having a bit of a strange reaction to CBD oil taken as a sublingual tincture.
    After marijuana was legalized in California i decided to give CBD a chance so i got one of these tinctures:
    https://www.cbd.org/products/cbd-sublingual-drops
    They come in various THC:CBD ratios.
    I tried the 1:2 THC:CBD first and i was able to sleep really well without feeling "high". The next day i had more energy than I have had in many years. I was able to read quite a big and get a lot done. However, as the evening progressed i began feeling very manic. I had a weird energy and my thoughts were racing and I was getting very anxious and felt like i couldnt control the flow of my thoughts.
    (I have to mention here that I have OCD which can get really bad).
    I then decided to go back and try the 1:18 ratio tincture which almost has no THC. I figured maybe the THC is messing with my OCD symptoms. The new tincture had a much more gradual effect but I also got a lot of energy during the week but then i felt many times in the evening that my OCD is kicking into high gear and I am feeling manic.

    I have noticed a similar thing before with NAC which gave me pretty serious mania and anxiety and I swore never to touch it again and threw my bottle out.

    There seems to me that there is a weird relationship between my CFS symptoms (including brain fog) and my OCD symptoms. Things that seem to lift my mental fog often cause a manic feeling which worsens my anxiety.

    Here is a super brosciency theory: maybe my CFS is in fact caused by my OCD? i do remember my CFS started when my anxiety was starting to fully bloom in my grad studied. Maybe a suppression of all nervous functions is my body's way of coping with the intolerable anxiety? if the light is too bright, just break the lamp? This would certainly be consistent with similar stories of people whose symptms started during an emotionally stressful time. Maybe CFS is body's coping mechanism.
    Anyways , I dont know nothing about biology and physiology, and broscience theories dont serve anyone, so forgive my indiscretion.

    Thanks

    H
     
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  2. outdamnspot

    outdamnspot Senior Member

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    I think you would have to be genetically vulnerable to CFS, rather than it just being a 'brake' the body can implement; that said, my experience mimics yours .. my CFS started after several years of traumatic, OCD-induced stress.
     
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  3. Prefect

    Prefect Senior Member

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    It may also be because you've been used to a lower cognitive state for so long due to CFS that when something "wakes" you out of it you don't know how to deal with it.

    The occasional times I have a "cognitive" ramp up without a gabaergic substance like alcohol to keep me calm I don't know how to deal with it and maneuver it, because it's been so damned long since my head worked at a normal pace, so I panic and gradually settle back into a state of mental fog, catatonia, where I'm used to being.

    It takes courage to feel normal again.

    I'm convinced CFS is an organically induced dissociative state that involves HPA axis dysfunction.
     
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  4. hmnr asg

    hmnr asg

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    Thank you for the reply. That is certainly a plausible explanation since my OCD is of the pure-o variant which makes you fairly hyper vigilant to your thoughts and how your mind is working.
    Also you mentioned the word "dissociation state". I am not sure if you are referring to the classic psychological definition, but thats is certainly one of my bigger problems.
    I think the solution is to take it easy with the CBD oil and skip some days. I skipped yesterday and today i slept 11 hours which is not normal for me (I sleep around 9). I felt like i was a bit exhausted.
    Anyhoo, i am 100% sure the OCD and CFS are related somehow.


    Thank you
     
  5. Prefect

    Prefect Senior Member

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    Have you tried fluvoxamine? It’s very effective for ocd and its agonism of sigma 1 receptors helps with anxiety and cognition
     
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  6. hmnr asg

    hmnr asg

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    Thanks Perfect for the recommendation! Actually fluvoxamine is the next AD i was going to try after much research.
    But i am not optimistic because i feel like ADs have stopped working for me. And there seems to be some evidence that if you try too many ADs, the next ones you try are even less likely to work.
    I tried Zoloft and it worked amazing for years and it literally saved my life until after maybe 5 years it just stopped working.
    Then i tried a few including effexor and prozac which had weird side effects. Then i tried Lexapro which was AMAZING. even better than zoloft. It turned me into what i imagined normal people would be like: calm and collected and relaxed and happy. Then after a few months i started sleeping more and more, like 12 hours (this was clearly a side effect of lexapro). I finally decided to quit lexapro too and then the ocd got so bad i decided to just go for it again in spite of the crazy sleeping hours. This time around lexapro didnt do much and when i tried to increase the dose above what i tried for the original, my Restless Leg Syndrome got really really bad. I ended up quitting lexapro last month and since then i am just surviving on the grace of benzos (terrible idea, i know).

    I guess i have to at some point ask for the fluvoxamine, but i have serious doubts about efficacy and i worry it will exacerbate my Restless Leg Syndrome again.

    Thanks again!

    H
     
  7. Prefect

    Prefect Senior Member

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    Start slow. Doctors don’t understand this disease. I was only 25 mg of fluvoxamine for the first seven years of my illness. A lot of these drugs help not because of their serotonin reuptake inhibition but due to other modalities. Agonism of sigma 1 receptors is a big part of fluvoxamine’s therapeutic effect. It also reduces Rem sleep and increases deep sleep which likely improves growth hormone secretion. Start slow start low and take it at night. Don’t listen to stupid doctors who want to increase the dosage by 50 mg a fucking week
     
  8. hmnr asg

    hmnr asg

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    Thank you for the advice. I was thinking about fluvoxamine and i think i will give it a try and start slow.
    I couldnt agree with you more on doctors. Most of them have no idea what they are doing, feel extremely entitled to getting a lot of respect from their patients, get very irritated if you question their decisions, and just overall are a bunch of pompous, overpaid @#%^s.
    *i went on a three paragraph rant against doctors and the medical establishment and i just erased it lol. There is no point in venting. We all know the story...

    H
     
  9. Prefect

    Prefect Senior Member

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    It's because they're working off a Depression protocol for SSRI administration, which involves weekly increase of the med until therapeutic doses are reached. This works for ordinary anxiety or depressive states. They don't understand CFS or other conditions that involve HPA axis suppression.

    I believe CFS, PTSD, and depersonalization disorder have a lot in common. All of them have been observed to show a pattern of HPA axis down-regulation in response to stress, which leads to insufficient cortisol secretion, whereas depressed patients release too much cortisol. CFS, due to systemic stress from an infection of some sort, and the latter two from long periods of stress, may in fact result in down regulation of cortisol release. This has been observed in Gulf War Syndrome and PTSD.

    What happens is, when you produce too much cortisol for too long due to stress, it causes a down regulation of HPA axis, due to over production of Glucocorticoid causing an inhibition of Corticotropin Releasing Hormone, which in turn reduces ACTH production, which in turn results in insufficient cortisol release in response to stress. When you get to that point, you no longer have a healthy high-octane adrenaline rich anxiety response to stress, you just check out and become catatonic, can't concentrate, and dissociate. This is observed in PTSD. I see posters on this thread mentioning their CFS started after a long period of anxiety and trauma.

    The answer in my opinion is not raising cortisol, as that would simply further down regulate the HPA axis. Paradoxically, I think the answer is in lowering cortisol. Integrative medicine doctors prescribe "adaptogen" herbs (e.g. bacopa) to fix this condition. Interestingly, many of them reduce cortisol. But I think herbs are not sufficiently strong enough to address this issue.

    You'll see in the graph below, Fluvoxamine reduces cortisol and raises melatonin at night when you take it, inducing deep sleep, and then raises cortisol around morning when you need it. I believe this can help re-set HPA axis dysfunction. I entered an 18 year semi-remission on low dose Fluvoxamine, but it also took a lot of desire to move on with my life and get back to my routine, it was by no means an overnight cure. After 20 years it's pooped out on me, but I'd say that's a good run. My doc has now put me on Zoloft, which I regret. It immediately raises cortisol, which makes it a morning pill, and likely does not in anyway address the issues I discuss above. I need to find another night time SSRI that does what Fluvoxamine did.
    upload_2018-1-28_0-12-29.png
     
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  10. CFS_for_19_years

    CFS_for_19_years Hoarder of biscuits

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    This explains how I feel a lot of the time! I've had high morning cortisol and low morning cortisol and they feel the same. The only way I've known what's going on is to have an 8 am blood or saliva test.

    I liked Paxil A LOT for sleep. A good starting dose is 5mg.
     
  11. hmnr asg

    hmnr asg

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    You make a strong case for Fluvoxamine. If i try it will come back and share my experience here on this thread :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
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