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CBD OIL... Anyone tried it? It's legal now.

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Zensational, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I've just tried the Cibdex, for 2 nights, 5 drops at bedtime. Both nights when I got up to pee, I was a little wobbly and disoriented. I woke up 5 times each night, as usual.

    Today, day 2, I'm spacey enough that I don't dare drive. So the cognitive issues during the day make this a bad choice for me, even if I could get to a dose that works for sleep.
     
    Hip likes this.
  2. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    I've moved to Colorado where any use of mj is legal and will try growing my own when I move into a house with space for that. Medical varieties. And I will try making my own hemp oil and complete-plant herbal tinctures.

    Re: Cibdex hemp oil drops, I'm fast becoming a believer. At 15 drops per day it has greatly reduced my hip pain. I'm renting a room, while waiting to close escrow on buying a house, and it's up a long flight of stairs. When I got here about 10 days ago I could only go up those stairs crab-style, one at a time, lifting to the next one only on my better leg, the left.

    For the last few days I have started walking up those stairs using both legs. There was mild pain at first but this morning I did it with no pain! I have long felt that the hip joint pain was caused by an inflammed, enlarged inguinal lymph gland(s) that feels like it's pushing my thigh bone out of the hip joint socket. It sometimes clicks back in, very painfully. And the left started hurting about 6 months ago and got worse fast. It is also feeling a lot less painful now.

    I am also sleeping much, much better, probably partly due to less pain.

    I continue the herbal protocols by Steven Bruhner, but have discontinued the acyclovir -- to see if either the herbal protocol or the hemp oil will take care of the EBV or whatever I have that caused me to not be able to walk unassisted a couple of years ago, ataxia.

    @Hip What do you think about this idea: I had/have the best results from hemp oil when I forgot or chose not to take my LDN. I have stopped using LDN because I found that it seemed to inhibit the good results from the hemp oil. Could it be that the LDN blocks the endocannibidiol receptors?
     
    MeSci likes this.
  3. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Did you take your Cibdex cannabidiol oil drops at the same time as taking your low-dose naltrexone (LDN) tablet before bed? Or did you take this oil the following day, well away from the time you took LDN tablet?
     
  4. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    I took a liquid LDN that I made from the tabs. I generally took it in the afternoon around 2-4pm. I take the CBD oil midmorning.
     
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @Iquitos
    Actually, thinking about it, since the half life of cannabidiol (CBD) is long (around 2 to 5 days, ref: here), once you start taking the CBD oil daily, CBD is going to be in your system at fairly constant levels, no matter what time you take your CBD oil.

    Low dose naltrexone (LDN), by contrast, will have left your body within 2 or 3 of taking it. So only for a few hours after taking LDN will you have opioid receptor antagonism from naltrexone.

    But of course after those 2 or 3 hours are over, although the opioid receptor antagonism will have ended as the naltrexone leaves your body, you will have higher levels of the opioid met-enkephalin in your body, because the effect of LDN is to create higher levels of met-enkephalin.

    So this means you initially have opioid receptor antagonism with LDN, for 2 or 3 hours, then followed by increased opioid receptor agonism (activation) for the rest of the day, due to the higher levels of met-enkephalin in circulation in the body.



    If we are talking about the effects of marijuana and tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), then it seems that opioid receptor antagonism from LDN will enhance the effects of marijuana and THC:

    This study found that opioid antagonism from naltrexone enhances the effects of marijuana: naltrexone increases the subjective "high" that users feel from marijuana, and increases the cardiovascular effects of marijuana. Note that marijuana contains both THC and CBD.

    This study also found that ultra low dose naltrexone enhances the pain-relieving effects of THC-like cannabinoids; this study employed a synthetic cannabinoid called WIN 55,212-2, which like THC, agonizes the CB1 and CB2 cannabinoid receptors.



    ➤ However, CBD is not THC, so the above studies do not apply to CBD. When it comes to CBD, things seem more complicated:

    Unlike THC, CBD has a very low affinity for the CB1 and CB2 cannabinoid receptors. Rather, CBD acts as an indirect antagonist of the agonist effects of THC-like cannabinoids. In other words, CBD can reduce THC's activation of the cannabinoid receptors. This is according to the Wikipedia article on CBD, which is worth looking at: Cannabidiol - Wikipedia.

    Though Wikipedia also says: one would assume that CBD would reduce the effects of THC, but in fact CBD may potentiate THC's effects by increasing CB1 receptor density. So it seems that there is no clear indication on whether CBD blocks or potentiates the effects of cannabinoids like THC. It probably does a bit of both.

    Likewise, I guess it therefore is not clear whether CBD may block or potentiate the effects of the body's own natural cannabinoids — the endocannabinoids on the cannabinoid receptors. These endocannabinoids are involved in appetite, pain-sensation, mood and memory.

    It is therefore not very clear how CBD works at the cannabinoid receptors: it seems to have both THC enhancing and THC reducing effects.

    So as for any attempt at a theoretical understanding of the interaction between LDN and CBD, it is all about a clear as mud!

    I would just stick with your own empirical observation that LDN reduces the effects of CBD, and go with that.



    ➤ Note that in addition to its effects at the cannabinoid receptors, CBD is also a 5-HT1A serotonin receptor agonist, which apparently relates to CBD's antidepressant, anxiolytic and neuroprotective effects. The Wikipedia article on the 5-HT1A receptor says that the effects of activating this receptor include:

    Relieving anxiety and depression
    Decreased aggression
    Increased sociability
    Decreased impulsivity
    Facilitation of sex drive and arousal
    Inhibition of penile erection
    Diminished food intake
    Prolongation of REM sleep latency
    Improving cognitive functions associated with the prefrontal cortex
    Improving symptoms of schizophrenia and Parkinson's

    In ME/CFS, it has been found that there are 5-HT1A receptor abnormalities. Perhaps CBD oil might help rectify these abnormalities?



    ➤ CBD is in addition a partial agonist of the 5-HT2A serotonin receptor. Activation of this 5-HT2A receptor has potent anti-inflammatory effects: such activation reduces levels of the inflammatory cytokine TNF-alpha (ref: here).

    Activation of the 5-HT2A receptor also causes a release of oxytocin (the love and human bonding hormone), which might explain why Cannabis tends to make people more friendly.

    Both the 5-HT1A and 5-HT2A receptors are known to mediate spiritual effects — see this study:
    Self-Transcendence as a Measurable Transpersonal Construct
    Albert Garcia-Romeu, The Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 2010, Vol. 42, No. 1

    Interestingly, many psychedelic drugs such as LSD and psilocybin activate both 5-HT1A and 5-HT2A, though most of the effects of these psychedelics is mediated by the 5-HT2A receptor.



    One important point that should be noted by those trying out CBD oil: CBD is observed to have a bell-shaped dose-response curve (ref: here). This means that up to a certain point, increasing your CBD dose will increase its effects; but then after you get to the optimum dosage, further increases in CBD dose will actually result in reduced effects.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2014
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  6. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    That combination looks rather problematic for some!:lol:

    I guess it must be other marijuana compounds responsible for the munchies then!:D
     
    Hip likes this.
  7. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    Yes MeSci, THC is apparently what provokes the marijuana muchies. These CBD drops don't have but a tiny bit of that.

    From Hip's post: "Prolongation of REM sleep latency"

    Yes, that must be what is helping me sleep so much better, along with the pain relief. Even though I still wake up several times each night, I can go back to sleep easily and don't feel that "wired and tired" feeling, just the "tired." Part of the waking up is having to go pee so often, typical of mecfs, I've read.

    And re: life of CBD in the body and the dosage, I've found that the 15 recommended drops are sufficient for me.

    I'm now in Colorado where recreational and medicinal mj are now legal, with a lot of rules and regulations. I can legally grow up to 6 plants for my own use and possess up to an ounce. As soon as I get into a place where I can, I'm going to grow some medicinal variety(s) and try making my own CBD drops as well as trying some juicing of the raw leaves and maybe even a toke in the night to see if it will help me go back to sleep faster.

    Youtube is rife with videos on how to do it and I've always had a green thumb.

    I'll also try making some of the herbal tinctures recommended by Steven Bruhner in his books, Herbal Antibiotics/Herbal Antivirals. I'm already making one of a medicinal fungus, cordyceps. And I'm going to try growing my own reishi mushrooms. It could take a couple of years before they fruit.
     
    MeSci likes this.
  8. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I wish the UK would hurry up!:cool:
     
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  9. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    And the rest of the puritan states of the US, too.

    Funny how conservatives are so against it until they or a loved one gets an untreatable illness that research shows can be treated with some form of cannibis.

    Colorado has recently passed a law that they will use some of the money (and there's lots of it -- an estimated $90 million this year) coming in from taxing the legal sales of mj, for research. I really wish some of "our" researchers would check it out. The US is far behind Israel and Spain but it could catch up in a hurry if the Federal laws were changed so the researchers could have access.

    Medical cannabis has been legal for a long time in California. Open Medicine Institute, when are you going to add cannibis to your research??
     
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  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I wonder why CBD oil is not made more widely available to treat medical conditions. If CBD — a non-psychoactive component of cannabis — is responsible for many of the medicinal benefits of cannabis, why not just make CBD oil widely available at a good price, rather that grapple with the pros and cons of legalizing marihuana. I am not arguing for or against legalization, but just pointing out that with CBD oil, you could sidestep all these legalization issues.
     
  11. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    It is widely available now, although that may not be known widely. One reason for its legal availability is that it has less THC than the Federal definition of marijuana.

    Anyone can buy it from at least three websites that sell it, plus Amazon.com. It's around $40/oz but that's the going rate for other herbal tinctures, so I guess that qualifies as a "good price." Tinctures with a higher concentration of CBD are correspondingly more costly.

    So it's lack of publicity or public knowledge that this remedy is available now. Some 22 US states have decriminalized "medical" marijuana and at least 11 more are in the process of doing that, or debating doing that. Washington state is in the process of decriminlizing recreational use, to match the action in Colorado but they are still working out the details.

    As of now, only those companies that have been supplying medical marijuana can also offer recreational mj in Colorado, but that will change come October 1, 2014. There are tourist tours to Colorado right now, whereby out-of-state tourists can buy and use recreationally.

    Eighteen US Senators have petitioned Pres. Obama to remove marijuana from the list of prohibited "narcotics" that classes it with LSD and heroin and says it has no medical benefits. Some of the medical benefits have been known since Nixon commissioned the Shafer study over 40 years ago that told him it should be "decriminalized." He promply buried that government study because it didn't come up with the answer he wanted. He proceeded to criminalize even the smallest amounts of mj because he wanted a legal excuse to arrest anti-Vietnam war potesters. Reagan intensified the persecution because of his political views/supporters. It has always been a political maneuver by those in power, against those they would like to squelch. And that Prohibition has never worked, just as it has never worked with alcohol. Just as with alcohol prohibition, it simply opened the doors to the underground production and supply networks, and gave law enforcement another chance to abuse its power. Even now, law enforcement agencies can snatch the assets of those they accuse of breaking the law, even when nothing has been proven. It corrupts law enforcement with the temptation to take land, vehicles and money for their own use. And it has prohibited scientific research in the US because researchers couldn't get a legal source of it for research. Israel has been researching it since the 1960s and finding it useful in treating cancer and dementia, among other things.

    http://norml.org/news/2002/03/18/sp...ver-read-his-own-report-president-bush-should

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_on_Marihuana_and_Drug_Abuse

    Just today I saw a news article saying that some epilepsy group is petitioning for the legal use of cannibis. Over 22 families of babies and children with fatal epilepsy (Dravet syndrome) have moved to Colorado so they can get hassle-free treatment of their children. A strain of medical marijuana has been named after the first baby it was tried on -- Charlotte's Web -- named after a baby cured of the syndrome, who is now living a normal life.

    I saw another headline about a family with a baby with a fatal epilepsy condition that has moved to Arizona so they can treat their child with medical marijuana.

    I'm particulary interested in this treatment of epileptic seizures since Dr. Jamie Deckoff-Jones, physician with ME, says that our restless-leg syndrome is a form of seizures. I have restless-leg syndrome and it has lessened quite a bit with my use of CBD drops, contributing to the fact that I now sleep better. I am looking forward to seeing whether use of the whole plant might eliminate my restless-leg syndrome.

    I plan to get my "red card", the authorizaton to buy medical mj in Colorado sometime in the next week or so. Then I will be able to buy small amounts and pay only the 2.9% sales tax instead of something like 30% tax on recreational.
     
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  12. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    This piece from the UK's Green News Network may be of interest re the absurdity of cannabis prohibition:

    Some of the links may not work, and I can't find the article online right now.
     
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  13. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    Speaking of BigPharma, there is apparently a UK company that has a prescription cannabis product called Sativex. I'll bet the patent offices of the world are receiving all kinds of cannabis-related applications. They apparently have an affiliated company in Japan doing research as well, with licensing as the carrot.
     
  14. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Stuff about Sativex:

    http://www.gwpharm.com/Sativex.aspx
     
  15. tootired

    tootired

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    I suffer from CFS and Lupus. I started researching this subject several months ago. Not all CBD oil is the same. All of the hemp oil on the market, Real Scientific Hemp Oil and Dixie products are being imported from China. This from a scientist who use to work for them. I have included an article from her. The hemp was planted by the Chinese to clean up highly toxic fields. The oil is not fit for human consumption. There is only one supplier of domestically produced oil and they are located in Michigan and Colorado. http://cannibascures.me Anyways here is the article

    Tamar Wise, the former head of science for Dixie Botanicals, has called out the entire cannabidiol products industry as well as her former employer.
    In a post on her Facebook page, Wise said CBD-based products are made from “crude and dirty hemp paste” that is contaminated with microbial life, residual solvents and other toxins.
    “I’m tired of so called CBD companies claiming that what they provide is medicine. Anyone using a CBD from hemp product please be aware of what you’re actually getting b/c it is not what you think,” Wise wrote on her Facebook page. The message was quickly copied and re-posted on several other social media pages of those with an interest in the marijuana industry.
    “What these companies are doing is criminal and dangerous…and since I formulated most of these products as head of Dixie science, I feel responsible for spreading the truth.”
     
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  16. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Is the above post a plug for a place the poster @tootired is affiliated with? If so, that is against the rules here at PR.

    @Kina
     
  17. CFS_for_19_years

    CFS_for_19_years First Do No Harm

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    Looks like useful information to me, and not a plug, especially from someone who is sick with CFS and Lupus. First post, yes, but look at the rest of the post.

    The last thing any sick person needs to put in their system is badly contaminated products (pesticides, micro-organisms), which is why a lot of patients who use medical cannabis either grow their own (organically) or insist on knowing the source of their product and how it was grown. With legalization in Washington, over 200 pesticides have been "approved" for use. Want to see that list?

    Carry on with warning first-time posters, but I think this one was a miss and should be given a pass, as this information is very helpful to me.
     
    leela likes this.
  18. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I came across this allegation on Amazon. The comments seem worth reading.
     
  19. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    Yes, it seems odd that she should have her comments posted, by a third party, on the page of a product produced by Cibdex, not Dixie/Dew Drops. She seems to want to include all such products without actually mentioning Cibdex by name, a sort of guilt by association.

    Then one commenter says she is starting her own business and is bashing the competition, but that, too, is unsubstantiated rumor.
     
  20. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I found some more info about her and the allegations here.

    On this page she says she is writing a 'tell all' article.

    It seems weird that she was previously formulating and promoting the product, and is now basically admitting/claiming that she was peddling a dangerous product (and presumably in full awareness of its dangers)!

    In light of this 'admission', might not people start suing her if they think they have suffered adverse effects?
     

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