Choline on the Brain? A Guide to Choline in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
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Case for BioPsychoSocio Cause of CFS

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Stretched, Feb 2, 2018.

  1. TenuousGrip

    TenuousGrip Senior Member

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    Years ago, I had a client who was a fairly famous genetic researcher at a prestigious research university. I asked him about the balance between nature and nurture. I've never forgotten his answer:

    "Genetics loads the gun. Environment pulls the trigger."

    I have no trouble believing that sustained, inordinate levels of stress (using every possible definition of the word 'stress,' including infection, trauma, insult, injury, etc.) could be the trigger in people genetically predisposed.

    I fell apart medically after about six of The Worst Years Of My Life.

    My sister-in-law was diagnosed with cancer after about a half-dozen of the most stressful years in her life. Did the stress have anything to do with her cancer ? Maybe. Possibly. Probably.

    But we don't really hold most other illnesses -- like my SIL's cancer -- up to the BPS model the way they do with ME/CFS. Instead, we spend less time evaluating the path the patient took before becoming sick and more time treating their disease.

    I'd gladly accept the existence of a BPS model that has some relevance in some cases ... IF .... like cancer and all other diseases where 'lifestyle factors' may play some role ... we stopped blaming the patients.

    If first responders (eg, paramedics, emergency medical technicians, etc.) acted the way the medical community has toward us ... they'd arrive on the scene of a serious motor vehicle accident and -- instead of extracting the injured driver from the car and administering medical attention -- say

    "I'm sorry, but it looks like you made an illegal turn. You're on your own."

    :-(
     
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  2. boombachi

    boombachi Senior Member

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    I am lost with where this thread is going. PTSD is a well studied

    PTSD is caused by trauma. This could be considred a type of stress but then it needs to be called trauma if that is what is being studied. I consider depression to be a normal reaction to prolongued stress but that does not make it a mental illness.
     
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  3. femtosecond99

    femtosecond99 Senior Member

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    Trauma is a type of stress, and depression is a type of mental illness. But I agree that it's silly to argue semantics. More important is to understand the underlying biology.
     
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  4. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    It should then also apply for Iraq war veterans, but there has been very little written about Iraq war and CFS. I can only presume it is because CFS hasn't been happening at the same rates for soldiers in the Iraq war, especially when we consider that in today's social media world it's much harder to hide this kind of phenomenon than 20 years ago during the Gulf War. If there was a big bunch of Iraq veterans bedbound due to CFS it would be common knowledge.

    This study
    supports the idea that veterans from Gulf War were especially prone to developing CFS, whereas Iraq war veterans show typical psychological disease triggered by stress and trauma such as depression, anxiety and PTSD.
     
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  5. Stretched

    Stretched Senior Member

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    If BPS=GWS=AWS=IWS=PTSD ∴ = CFS, ≠ virus :confused:
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  6. femtosecond99

    femtosecond99 Senior Member

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    I'm pretty sure I've seen studies showing similar GWI/CMS/CFS from the Iraq war as the Gulf war, and the VA link I posted above says that 10-50% of veterans from both Iraq and Afghanistan developed CMI.
     
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  7. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I don't have to buy into anything and I'm genuinely trying to understand you,.

    Lots of diseases share the same symptoms or have an over lap.As an example MS and CFS. It doesn't always mean that they share similar pathways. Some people with cancer have terrible fatigue and are misdiagnosed with CFS initially as are people with Addison't disease, brain tumours, muscle disorders and in the UK a poor chap with vCJD.

    Just because you believe PTSD and CFS may share some symptoms (and personally I don't see them being at all similar) then it doesn't mean that these symptoms are from the same cause.

    People with POTs and OI disorders are misdiagnosed with psych diseases and told they have "panic attacks". They sound the same to the Psych lobby....

    I'm missing your point probably. Is there any way you could please restate it simply?
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  8. Stretched

    Stretched Senior Member

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    The above post by post are not directed for your approval nor do they represent my whole belief system re CFS.

    My intention was/is to simply expand on some disparate CFS occurrences with some not-so-obvious underpinnings and try to apply some logic in bringing them together, so someone might run with it if they also see what I have put out there. Who knows, maybe a reviewer here will have an epiphany, or someone else in a position to build on a theory will do so, and we’ll have a bigger (better) cake. It’s obvious by the replies some are wrestling with the ideas, some get it and others just don’t want to give it a go. That’s the way of venturing out on a limb.

    As for restating my premises, candidly I’m out of gas - brain fog (mini PTSD?). Maybe I’ll reread the thread tomorrow to fill in gaps or restate my points in summary,
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  9. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    Depending on your tests. I am not direct patient of her, she just covered for my doctor once. That I know of antiviral if you ahve reactivations. And depdning on your immune system state: modulators, if NK are low, something to raise them....
    Is all depending on your labs.
     
  10. Diwi9

    Diwi9 Senior Member

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    Right...because the federal government in all of its benevolence is just going to hand over the causation of injury to hundreds of thousands of claims (BTW - the article did list depleted uranium). I don't hold onto your belief that stress is a cause of chronic medical conditions with neurological consequences, and that hypothalamic dysfunction is not the result/consequence of neurotoxic or viral exposure. I'll give you the point that stress can exacerbate the situation for someone with these hypothalamic damage...and no more. PTSD is not the same as ME/CFS and some of the arguments in this thread are conflating the two.
     
  11. femtosecond99

    femtosecond99 Senior Member

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    It doesn't make any difference to the claims. The VA is already taking responsibility as far as I'm aware. Whether it's stress or uranium or vaccines, either way it seems to be the US government's responsibility.

    Nobody can tell for certain at the moment what the exact cause is. We just know that chronic stress definitely does cause identical hypothalamic dysfunction (note that it's not actual damage), we know there is chronic stress in wartime, and there is no current evidence of viral infection or neurotoxic damage that would explain up to 50% CFS/GWI/CMI "casualty" rate in all recent wars.
     
  12. Stretched

    Stretched Senior Member

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    Given the contents of these posts concerning GWI, AWI, IWI, how does hypothalamic damage fit in (emerge from PTSD)?
     
  13. Stretched

    Stretched Senior Member

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    Why not? See the ‘Black Mamba” example in this thread. I would volunteer a SWAG that the situation described would
    make me sick, e.g. anxiety, HPA dysregulation, et al... .
     
  14. Stretched

    Stretched Senior Member

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    I don’t know why PTSD would not exist in all wars - unless they’re throwing mud pies (vs killing each other) =&
     
  15. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    I think vaccinations play a big role, which would be applicable to both wars, though probably more so with the gulf war.​
     
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  16. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Used to be called "soldier's heart", "shell-shock", and a few others. It's had a different name going back millennia, PTSD is just the modern version. So, yeah, it has existed in all wars. Seems like war is not good for us. :rolleyes:
     
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  17. Stretched

    Stretched Senior Member

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    As long as there are 2 or more of us around we’re stuck with it:grumpy:
     
  18. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    Then link those studies please. The study you linked earlier only talks about a diffuse "CMI" concept which links CFS together with all sorts of mental disorders, so we cannot really deduce how many of those 50% had CFS. The study I linked concluded that Gulf War veterans were more likely to experience CFS than military comparison groups, but later they conclude that there were no studies that investigated CFS in Afghanistan and Iraq wars.

    Based on these studies, I wouldn't be confident to make conclusions in any directions, other than that a high percentage of soldiers experience some kind of disorders post-war. What is clear to me is that we don't have a massive lot of bedbound CFS patients (as on this forum) among veterans from Iraq, as this would be common knowledge.
     
  19. femtosecond99

    femtosecond99 Senior Member

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    We were discussing Gulf War Illness here, not CFS, but it does seem to be very similar to CFS.
     
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  20. Stretched

    Stretched Senior Member

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    That’s why we were establishing that GWI = AWI = IWI = PTSD; then if GWI = PTSD, then PTSD = CFS/ME, which also = ISD (Immune System Dysfunction)
    (with or w/o viral involvement, but not likely, from logic of flow),
     

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