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carnitine or NAC for those with CBS+, NOS+, COMT+, SUOX+ ??

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by oh_noes, Dec 21, 2013.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Hi Critterina,

    I'm not saying it's not methyl trap, but it is cited in the article as a source of histamine,

    Methyltrap gives every appearance of increasing histamine. It causes widespread inflammation, asthma, MCS, allergic responses, IBS, skin rashes, and all sorts of hyper sensitive responses.
  2. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Yes, we know that, Freddd. Some of us have histamine intolerance without having methyltrap, (which I'm still awaiting a biochemical explanation of, you may remember). You just have to allow for the possibility that there can good medical evidence of a reaction that has nothing to do with your pet theory, yet shares some of the same symptoms.
  3. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    What would be a rough max for doses of these supplements where it would probably lose its effect? I ask because I can seem to take any amount I wish with no ill effects
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Critterina,

    There are a number of possible causes. There are more ways to make things go wrong than to go right. That is why I specified the grouping of descriptions of symptoms that go with methyltrap. I was being very specific so that there would be no misunderstanding. If the specific enzymes involved in breaking down or getting rid of histamine require ATP for powering the transaction at any stage or methylation or ATP involved in making the enzymes it could very well fit right into right into the deadlock quartet hypothesis. If that's the case, then there might be a testable hypothesis there. It would depend upon what all your non-histamine related symptoms are that might tell the story.

    The 4 way deadlock has thousands of cascading mysterious problems resulting.

    I don't know what the thousands of breakdown pathways are when enzymes are blocked by insufficient ATP, and why which specific ones. I don't know anybody who does. The body's triage methods for allocating scarce resources are not yet described.

    It's hardly a pet theory. And I do NOT ignore "good medical evidence". It has to fit in. There is a difference between "good medical evidence" and understanding or explaining it correctly. I work with an evolving working hypothesis. I don't care about the hypothesis or theory or whatever semantic nitpicking you want to use. It is whatever it needs to be. I walked in the door here 6 years ago with a very different working hypothesis. The facts and responses haven't changed but the explanations have. Histamine intolerance is a result, not a cause. Who knows how deep the cause is buried.


    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/5/1185.full Article containing the below image.
    Added: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/5/1185/F2.large.jpg

    Methylation is involved in disposing of histamine via the HNMT pathway by SAM-e. So, one possible conclusion is that some sort of partial methylation block might be involved in Histamine Intolerance. It's that pesky SAM-e getting involved.

    Determination of the HNMT activity is based on transmethylation of histamine by S-adenosyl-l [methyl-14C] methionine (126). Furthermore, the total histamine degradation capacity can be measured (69).
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2013
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Knackers,

    Your question is completely unanswerable as it sits. Some have a negative effect if too much. It's all about combinations, balance and individual needs.

    For starters, most MeCbl that you have tried may have very little of the effects you need. Slow down. Relax. This is a "game" of skill. You can't "win" by trying to blast through.
  6. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Arizona, USA
    Thank you for acknowledging that. And thank you for speaking English this time, and not using undefined acronyms. As you may remember, last time I couldn't tell what the FFF you were talking about. (Example of one of your UAs)

    It would be rather short list of metabolic pathways that ATP is not involved in, don't you think? And each has a myriad of other things that can go wrong.

    On a stable methylation protocol, prescribed for me, my symptoms are stable until I do one of the following:
    Eat a breakfast of oatmeal and cinnamon
    Eat a breakfast of cottage cheese and blueberries
    Eat any amount of tomato, pepper (bell, chili, paprika), spinach
    Eat any cooked and refrigerated meat (the longer the refrigeration, the worse the symptoms)
    Drink over-fermented kombucha (violent reaction)
    Take NAC, 600 mg, 3x/day (also severe reaction)

    Symptoms are immediate nasal blockage and decreased lung capacity, down to 80% as tested by spirometry. With continued use of the above substances, more extensive edema and inflammation.

    The symptoms may subside, or I may choose to use a short course (3-5 days) of steriods to reverse them. Trouble arises when I can't or don't avoid histamines. My protocol already includes twice daily antihistamines. Since I've been living in a hotel since Sept 8, my control over my food has not been wonderful. Sometimes I take 2 more benedryl at lunch, for 3 times a day.

    I have had extensive lab tests during the past year. All my non-histamine related symptoms except early-onset obesity are described in the article Diagnosis of Adrenal Insufficiency in the Annals of Medicine, 2003 and they seminar "Adrenal Insufficiency" in the Lancet, 2003. That's probably how deeply the cause is buried. Cortisol opposes histamine and cortisol is largely undetectable in my lab tests, and it's precursor, progesterone, is completely undetectable.

    And thus many thousands of ways of being confused with other things.

    I would submit that possibly different people, depending on genome, environment, and lifestyle, may have bodies that use different methods to triage.

    Then why can't I find a good, peer-reviewed article on either paradoxical methylfolate insufficiency or methyl trap? You refer to "many studies", but double-blind, placebo-controlled studies are the hallmark of "good medical evidence" in the US, double-blind, non-inferiority studies substitute in Japan because of the different balance in ethical treatment vs. hard science. I don't see the publications, and it appears that you are doing investigations on human subjects that don't meet the standards of good clinical practice, thus subjecting the study results to misinterpretation. (Not to mention liability issues.)

    Absent clinical evidence that would withstand scrutiny, I would settle for "understanding or explaining it correctly". Thank you for publishing link to the HI article. My doctors have copies. Links to methyl trap articles would be more welcome.
    celeste and SOC like this.
  7. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Hi guys when I take relatively big doses of NAC my symptoms increase within a few hours. Do you know any way to tell if this is due to the methylation cycle, histamine intolerance, breaking down biofilms or anything else?

    I am able to take l-carnitine which gives me energy. Again in pretty big doses.
    I always seem to need bigger doses than the average to see an effect with most things I take.

    I also seemed to be able to take liposomal glutathione and felt better on it. Again big doses.

    As a side question any idea on why I need to take big doses to see effects?

    Thank you
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
  8. oh_noes

    oh_noes

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    I definitely do. I have strikingly similar symptoms to you whenever I eat what you mentioned: cinnamon, berries (especially strawberries; they give me hives in addition to the asthmatic symptoms I get with all the others), tomato, pepper (bell, chili, paprika), spinach, any cooked and refrigerated meat. I always keep antihistamines handy because of the reactions I get.

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