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Carnitine = more fatigue

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Star-Anise, Jan 25, 2014.

  1. S.A.

    S.A.

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    Missouri
    That's a good point to watch out for the rebalancing. We got back the 3rd nutraEval since starting treatment and his folate and potassium were both still low even tho he's on so much folate, b12, and b6. Oh and potassium but apparently not enough. That could be a reason for the highs and lows. I also don't have him on biotin. I had taken him off the b complex after the hives (not flush) reaction to increasing niacin and hadn't started trying to titrate the other b vitamins individually.
     
  2. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    Hi Yall,

    I know this is an old thread, but I have recently run into the same problem of L-Carnitine and Carnitine-Fumarate causing a somewhat dramatic increase in fatigue.

    I have another theory as to why carnitine might make one tired: Inhibition of Glutamate-induced NMDA excitation.

    Carnitine prevents glutamate toxicity through increasing binding affinity of glutamate for metabotropic glutamate receptors (as opposed to ionotropic glutamate receptors like NMDA receptors that, in my limited understanding, are how glutamate causes problems). In any case, one way or another the activation of these metabotropic receptors prevents glutamate-induced excitotoxicity [1].

    Theoretically, this could also explain why Star-Anise experienced an increase in appetite: Glutamate stimulation of mGluR5 receptor (a metabotropic receptor ie the kind that carnitine helps glutamate attach to) increases appetite in rats.

    Assuming this theory holds up and the carnitine is just restoring the brain towards balance, then over time we should get used to the lower NMDA stimulation, and carnitine should stop making us tired. I tested this on myself two or so months ago, and indeed, this is what happened over the course of...I think some number of days. Maybe a week? (Sorry, I didn’t keep notes.) I still take it both to give me energy (too much carnitine now gives me insomnia...as it should, I suppose) and to help me sleep (which it does, when taken in the right amount).

    If it helps at all, my thoughts on fatigue that gradually disappears came from experience I (and others) have had with molybdenum. Molybdenum makes a number of people tired when they first take it, with the symptom gradually disappearing over the course of maybe two weeks(?) or so. This occurs--or so the theory goes--because a deficiency of molybdenum prevents sulfite oxidase (SUOX) from converting sulfites into sulfates. The sulfites, in turn, react with cystine to form S-sulfocysteine (SSC), a glutamate analog [3]. But in spite of the fact that the molybdenum is returning the SSC levels back to where they should be, it initially makes people tired to have less glutamatergic signalling. If the theory is right. (I am sorry that I don't know where I read this theory. Unfortunately, the phoenixrising thread that I first read about molybdenum fatigue on got lost when they re-did the web site a few years ago.)

    [1] Metab Brain Dis. 2002 Dec;17(4):389-97. Prevention of ammonia and glutamate neurotoxicity by carnitine: molecular mechanisms. Llansola M1, Erceg S, Hernández-Viadel M, Felipo V. <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12602515>

    [2] Front Endocrinol (Lausanne). 2013; 4: 103. Published online 2013 Aug 15. doi: 10.3389/fendo.2013.00103 PMCID: PMC3744050. Glutamate and GABA in Appetite Regulation. Teresa C. Delgado <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3744050/>

    [3] Adv Exp Med Biol. 2013;776:13-9. doi: 10.1007/978-1-4614-6093-0_2. Molybdenum cofactor deficiency: metabolic link between taurine and S-sulfocysteine. Belaidi AA1, Schwarz G. <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23392866>
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2015
    helen1 likes this.
  3. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Cambodia
    I got both fatigue & anxiety from LCF, & on Fred's advice switched to liquid carnitine, which I could titrate slowly up from low doses. Now on a whopping 2 mg. But no sfx like with the LCF. Some of us are like this.
     
  4. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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  5. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Cambodia
    Sfx = side-effects.
     
    MeSci and aaron_c like this.

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