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Carnitine = more fatigue

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Star-Anise, Jan 25, 2014.

  1. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    Has this ever occurred for anyone? I have tried acetyl and fumarate. Fumarate is worse - like vicious return of fatigue to the point of needing to nap & useless all night. Acetyl is better, but I feel like I'm stoned, even at tiny dose - 25 mg. I don't think it is the methyl, being that I tolerate methyl well in mB12, and Mfolate forms. I'm wondering if it has something to do with it's relationship with methionine and lysine, both of which I do not tolerate in supplement form - maybe due to sulphur connection? It's interesting though - meat doesn't give me a problem… hmmm.
    Maybe detox reaction? Dunno, this detox thing is so intangible…
    *Note, I have to say that my overall energy metabolism though has benefited. My blood sugar is far more stable, & my energy reserve is greater (once I get through the crappy fatigue part).
    Any insight anyone can give would be very welcome. :)
    merylg likes this.
  2. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    I definitely get this with ALC and with higher doses of LCF. I found potassium helps to control this and have been experimenting.
    Star-Anise likes this.
  3. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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    Well for me carnitine was the supplement that put me into CFS in the first place because I already had a blocked methylation cycle. DO you supplement with all elements of the quarter mb12, adb12 , lcf and folate?
    How much potassium and how much folate are you taking?
  4. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @STAR, this is just theory, but see what you think. If taking l-carnitine starts up the Kreb's cycle, glucose would be needed. If you aren't getting enough easily available glucose, the adrenals would have to kick in for the gluconeogenesis cycle. That might make you tired until all the l-carnitine is wasted. If that is what is happening with you, I would logically think the more effective the form of l-carnitine, the more tired you would feel. And, taking some pure glucose along with the l-carnitine might help the situation.
  5. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @stridor @Violeta @zzz0r
    Thank-you for your responses! It was so supportive to wake up this morning and have all of your wisdom in my inbox :)
    Here is what I'm taking:
    Attempted dose of carnitine fumarate: approximately 85mg
    Attempted dose of acetyl-l carnintine: 50mg

    mB12 - 500 mcg in am- I used to take more, but then when I started the AdenosylB12, I needed to decrease because I was feeling overmethylated (+++agitation - I was a beast!)

    mfolate: 165mcg in am, + 50mcg at lunch. *I had posted earlier in the week about addition of adenosylB12 & weight gain & @Freddd had said to increase my methylfolate. I was reluctant to do so because increasing it before, again had turned me into that beast (+very quick to anger, insane energy). So I added this small dose at lunch, and that day the edema started to decrease & I was able to tolerate it as it was far enough away from my am dose.

    Potassium: I was taking much more (almost a gram a day), but then when I started the adenosylB12, I needed to decrease it. I would just get super fatigued after taking it, a gross, yucky sludgy feeling. I'm taking 50mg in am, 50 mg in pm, and sometime 100mg at night if I find I'm craving potassium rich foods. I'm going to work on titrating this up but it is a fine line.

    adenosylB12: 1.075mg in am: I noticed an immediate surge of energy when I started this, but I had to immediately adjust my mB12 dose as well as drop all of the other supplements that I was on from Yasko, I was taking Vitamin K, and Lactoferrin that she says helps with the ACAT mutations that have following role according to Yasko:

    Interestingly at different points riboflavin, pantothenic acid, vitamin K, lactoferrin, CoQ10 have been removed from my supplement regimen due to causing more fatigue. Once removed I felt better.

    @Violeta that theory has been in the back of my mind for awhile too. I'm no scientist, and I described it almost as if I'm "overdriving" my energy systems. I have a baseline of hypoglycaemia caused by adrenal weakness. This was part of the first stages of me getting sick is that I started to have uncontrollable hypoglycaemia and I just couldn't get enough food in my body, it was like I was always hungry. I think my cells were starving for energy. I was training hard as a runner and was doing exceptionally well in terms of performance, but then I hit the wall and I had to substantially decrease my activity.
    As well, I noted last night, ah, I did feel better once I ate something. And my husband said, wow, you must have been hungry, because I ate a lot! LOL! The heavy fatigue did not go away per se, but it subsided a bit.

    This morning I feel odd. A little out of sorts. I have a very clear head. My mood is slightly on the agitated side, and I'm feeling a bit more edema. This is an interesting seesaw! I think today I will see how I feel, I might skip carnitine today, or at very least half it again.

    Thanks again!
  6. rwac

    rwac Senior Member

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    I believe that carnitine promotes fat metabolism, and that yields less energy than carb metabolism.

    From wikipedia
    "Carnitine transports long-chain acyl groups from fatty acids into the mitochondrial matrix, so they can be broken down through β-oxidation to acetyl CoA to obtain usable energy via the citric acid cycle.[2]"


    Also, carnitine increases production of a nasty substance called TMAO (trimethylamine-N-oxide) by gut bacteria.

    http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v19/n5/full/nm.3145.html

    @Star-Anise
    Perhaps you should try taking the potassium with a carb meal and some salt. I believe potassium can cause hypoglycemia.
    Star-Anise likes this.
  7. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Don't forget that carnitine inhibits the entry of thyroid hormone into the cell. If you're getting fatigue reactions from taking it, it could also possibly be causing a transient hypothyroidism.
    oh_noes, adreno, rwac and 2 others like this.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Jeffrez,

    To the best of my knowledge and experience the thyroid gland is rich in mitochondria and AdoCbl requiring the LCF to transport the fats. Changes that influence the thyroid and TSH takes days to happen. There is no fast thyroid changes. They are slow. The people I have talked with who tried to micromanage their thyroid made changes faster than the thyroid could react and it got screwed up but good and took weeks to settle down.
  9. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @rwac Thanks for your responses!
    This makes a lot of sense. My belly fat is decreasing for sure, & I noticed that this supplement is touted in the mass media as a fat burner.


    http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v19/n5/full/nm.3145.html
    WOWzers I will look into this..


    Ya, for sure. I can't take it without food for that reason, as well I'm worried about its effect on my stomach as I already have a sore spot that I have to take a PPI to manage :)

    Thanks again! So the experiment continues… :)
    oh_noes likes this.
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Star,

    I and many have found that the carnitine needs to be taken 30 minutes before food to be most effective, like SAM-e and a few others. It was also critical to healing my heart and allowing recovery from congestive heart failure while healing my atrophied muscles as well. It appears to be linked to mitochondria proliferation and neuroblasts forming, and osteoblasts forming and promotion of muscle grown in atrophied muscles. Good luck.
  11. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    @Star-Anise
    Carnitine can lower thyroid function. If you are already hypothyroid, carnitine could be causing further problems. If you don't know your thyroid status, it might be worth looking into.
    oh_noes likes this.
  12. BFG

    BFG

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    I bought doctors best acetyl l carnitine a year ago and have tried to add it to my daily regimen about 6 times throughout the year and all six times it gave me symptoms to waht you describe, kind of dazed and increased fatigue for a couple days.
  13. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @BFG @SOC @jeffrez
    Thanks for the info. Yes something funny was happening as I was getting chills all day yesterday that makes me suspect thyroid, *but* interestingly even though I feel crappy on it, I notice an increase of energy, so, as I think caledonia always says I'm going to "go slow & low," with this, lol :) It is so helpful to know other people have similar symptoms as I am...
    Thanks once again everyone! :)
  14. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I find that cruciferous vegetables and other goitrogens and sulfurophans (sp?) bother my thyroid, while carnitine does not seem to bother it at all. On days when I get the chills I also get hot flashes; do you get those? I used to think I was getting a fever, but then started taking my temperature and found it down in the 97's.

    I actually think the goitrogens, sulfurophans, and sulfur foods bother the thyroid through their action on the liver. I had seen someone's blood work who had all the thyroid issues after a go at juicing a lot of greens, and her TSH was down but T3 was down, too. It might be that it affects the liver's ability to convert T4 to T3. Just a conjecture at this point.
  15. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @Violeta - yes, I was having some hot flashes as well, although the hot was more subdued, and cold more prominent.
    Interesting...... hmmmm thanks for info. I know with respect to thyroid my TSH has always tested normal, but we were able to identify a T4-T3 conversion problem. I used to take ashwagandha to assist with this, but then had to wean off at some point about a year ago, because contributed to fatigue. I appreciate your conjecture, as I certainly know that I have liver-ish problems. Until very recently I was taking a bunch of supplements to help with stage 1/2 liver detox. But then with the addition of the adenosyl-B12, they caused fatigue too. I have had this hunch for awhile that my liver is the weak link, and that my "fatigue" reactions are really due to detox issues from a sluggish liver. My hope is that with increasing methylation that it will support overall liver detox.... It's good to know that you have thyroid issues and have been able to benefit from carnitine, as I mentioned above, despite the crappy feeling that I had, I absolutely noticed less post-exertional fatigue, and more energy reserve when exerting myself. I have been blessed within the last year my energy has improved to the point that I can exercise a couple times per week. With the carnitine I found so much more cardiovascular capabilities versus without it, I found that I was in anaerobic mode. This must coincide with what @Freddd has found with carnitine support to the heart.
    Fascinating stuff. Thanks once again :) xoxo
  16. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    I've nothing helpful to say on the current topic, but I am very happy to hear that Freddd's advice helped with the edema issue :).
    Star-Anise likes this.
  17. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    Hi all: quite a bit better on 1/3 of dose 8.3 mg! -*edit - spoke too soon. brain fog and fatigue still present, but delayed*
    WOW!
    And the hypoglycemia thing seems to be ++factor. I woke up last night & needed to eat in the middle of the night... & even from this low dose my appetite is ++stimulated.
    Seems that I'm going to have to go slow to give body chance to adjust. Freddd suggested some supplements too to support getting energy into cells. We'll see how those go...S
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
    NilaJones likes this.
  18. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Anything that improves ATP production if it's been poor has the potential to improve Insulin Metabolism, if that occurs then you would get a sudden drop in blood sugar (called reactive hypoglycaemia) until you have 'used up' your circulating Insulin. You might feel any of tired/faint/wired when this happens. Afterwards you may well suffer a stinking headache.
    As you persist with the treatments (like Alcar) things stabilise and you get better energy levels without the problems. When you first try any new treatment for ATP production it's a good idea to taken them shortly after food this helps to prevent this reaction occurring or at least lesson it.

    Alcar also mimics the 'hunger hormone' called AcetylCholine thus is can make you hungry for this 'false' reason but also with good reason (the hypoglcaemia causing you to need food).
    Star-Anise likes this.
  19. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Take it with food, and stick with it. Those symptoms should wear off quite quickly. More info in my previous post.
    Star-Anise likes this.
  20. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    This contradicts normal advice, but if ALCAR is causing hypoglycaemia, you make need to take sugar with it. Yep weird I know, but if you are losing vast amounts of blood glucose, you may need something fast acting for the short term.

    I am diabetic and test my blood sugars, I needed the equivalent of three teaspoons of sugar per 'ALCAR' dose when I first started. It all stabilised in a couple of weeks. I you have severe adrenal problems this may exacerbate this isue.

    If you do have issues with Cortisol then I would suggest the following:
    • Take following a meal
    • Take 2 teaspoon of sugar
    • Repeat the sugar every 10 mins until symptoms stop.
    I hope this helps.
    Star-Anise likes this.

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