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can'ttolerate : OSR#1, chelators, glutahione creme, chocolate

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by markmc20001, Oct 11, 2010.

  1. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    Hi folks.

    Looking for suggestions here. I used to be able to tolerate OSR#1, Chocolate, and chelators, and glutathione creme. Not all the time, but occasionally I could get these working enough to raise my glutathione levels and feel some relief. However, I feel like I can;t get those detoxifiers working anymore. I can't even really tolerate horsetail, or cilantro and it just feels like some detox pathway is really plugged up. Any ideas?

    When I try those things(chelators, and glutathione) that helped before all I feel is my gums start hurting(like they are infected), and I get sluggish like I can't process various foods and supplements. I feel like I need more glutahione, but for all the reasons above I am hainvg problems boosting my glutathione. Any ideas what might be going on? I was taking antibiotics for a year and was able to tolerate that stuff, but actually stopped the ABX and was improving with just Freddd's protocol for weeks..... Freddd you may mention I need to stop the glutahione and precurers....My bad. Would that cause the feeling I can't tolerate simple chelators like horsetail and cilantro? I don;t feel like I have a bunch of metals coming out of my system, but it feels like I can;t tolerate them when they do come out..

    The turning point seemed like when I started messing around with EDTA. I was feeling great, then added EDTA and crashed.... I know I may have re-distributed some metals, but hoping maybe it is something like a bacterial overgrowth in my stomach or something easier to heal.

    One thing freddd, I slowed down on my methyl b12 losenges because I feel they would drop my testosterone levels when I took them. I was up to 15000mcg a day, and now am taking about 5000-10000. would that do it?

    thanks
    Mark

    thanks
    mark
  2. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    hi markmc20001 you say the turning point seemed to start when began taking EDTA, not sure of what brand your taking, but EDTA can have alot of known side effects heres a link about them
    http://www.drugs.com/sfx/edetate-calcium-disodium-side-effects.html one that stands out in regards to your symptoms is zinc deficiency which can cause increased allergic sensitivity see link http://www.nutritional-supplements-health-guide.com/zinc-deficiency-symptoms.html it's possible that the chelation treatment has removed metals that your body needs. horsetail can also have side effects see http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/843.html as can B12 and alot of other things. my advice would be to get a doctor to check your metal levels zinc etc and other possible side effects of supplements you've been taking and hopefully this will help to find out whats going on. hope this helps All the best
  3. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Mark.

    It might help you to treat to lift a partial methylation cycle block. This is upstream of glutathione synthesis, and my experience over the past several years is that boosting glutathione directly can be of some temporary help in ME/CFS, but it doesn't usually stay up permanently unless the partial methylation cycle block is dealt with. More information on the hypothesis behind this and the treatment based on it can be found at www.cfsresearch.org I also recommend running the methylation pathways panel from the Health Diagnostics and Research Institute in order to determine whether this partial block is present, and also to provide baseline data for comparison later, to gauge the progress of the treatment. Here is contact info and interpretive comments for this panel:


    Methylation Pathways Panel

    This panel will indicate whether a person has a partial methylation cycle block and/or glutathione depletion. I recommend that this panel be run before deciding whether to consider treatment for lifting the methylation cycle block. I am not associated with the lab that offers this panel.

    The panel requires an order from a physician or a chiropractor. The best way to order the panel is by fax, on a clinician’s letterhead.


    Available from:

    Health Diagnostics and Research Institute
    540 Bordentown Avenue, Suite 4930
    South Amboy, NJ 08879
    USA
    Phone: (732) 721-1234
    Fax: (732) 525-3288

    Lab Director: Elizabeth Valentine, M.D.

    Dr. Tapan Audhya, Ph.D., is willing to help clinicians with interpretation of the panel by phone.



    Interpretation of the Health Diagnostics and Research Institute
    Methylation Pathways Panel

    by
    Rich Van Konynenburg, Ph.D.


    Several people have asked for help in interpreting the results of
    their Health Diagnostics and Research Institute methylation pathway panels. Here are my suggestions for doing so. They are based on my study of the
    biochemistry involved, on my own experience with interpreting more
    than 120 of these panel results to date, and on discussion of some of
    the issues with Tapan Audhya, Ph.D., at the Health Diagnostics and Research Institute.

    The panel consists of measurement of two forms of glutathione
    (reduced and oxidized), adenosine, S-adenosylmethionine (SAM) , S-
    adenosylhomocysteine (SAH), and seven folic acid derivatives or
    vitamers.

    According to Dr. Audhya, the reference ranges for each of these
    metabolites was derived from measurements on at least 120 healthy
    male and female volunteer medical students from ages 20 to 40, non-
    smoking, and with no known chronic diseases. The reference ranges
    extend to plus and minus two standard deviations from the mean of
    these measurements.

    Glutathione: This is a measurement of the concentration of the
    reduced (active) form of glutathione (abbreviated GSH) in the blood
    plasma. From what I've seen, most people with chronic fatigue
    syndrome (PWCs) have values below the reference range. This means
    that they are suffering from glutathione depletion. As they undergo
    the simplified treatment approach to lift the methylation cycle
    block, this value usually rises into the normal range over a period
    of months. I believe that this is very important, because if
    glutathione is low, vitamin B12 is likely unprotected and reacts with toxins
    that build up in the absence of sufficient glutathione to take them
    out. Vitamin B12 is thus “hijacked,” and not enough of it is able to
    convert to methylcobalamin, which is what the methylation cycle needs
    in order to function normally. Also, many of the abnormalities and
    symptoms in CFS can be traced to glutathione depletion.

    Glutathione (oxidized): This is a measurement of the concentration
    of the oxidized form of glutathione (abbreviated GSSG) in the blood
    plasma. In many (but not all) PWCs, it is elevated above the normal
    range, and this represents oxidative stress.

    Adenosine: This is a measure of the concentration of adenosine in the
    blood plasma. Adenosine is a product of the reaction that converts
    SAH to homocysteine. In some PWCs it is high, in some it is low, and
    in some it is in the reference range. I don't yet understand what
    controls the adenosine level, and I suspect there is more than one
    factor involved. In most PWCs who started with abnormal values, the
    adenosine level appears to be moving into the reference range with
    methylation cycle treatment, but more data are needed.

    S-adenosymethionine (RBC) (SAM): This is a measure of the
    concentration of SAM in the red blood cells. Most PWCs have values
    below the reference range, and treatment raises the value. S-
    adenosylmethionine is the main supplier of methyl groups in the body,
    and many biochemical reactions depend on it for their methyl
    groups. A low value for SAM represents low methylation capacity, and
    in CFS, it appears to result from a partial block at the enzyme methionine
    synthase. Many of the abnormalities in CFS can be tied to lack of
    sufficient methyation capacity.

    S-adenosylhomocysteine (RBC) (SAH): This is a measure of the
    concentration of SAH in the red blood cells. In CFS, its value
    ranges from below the reference range, to within the reference range,
    to above the reference range. Values appear to be converging toward
    the reference range with treatment. SAH is the product of reactions
    in which SAM donates methyl groups to other molecules.

    Sum of SAM and SAH: When the sum of SAM and SAH is below 268
    micromoles per deciliter, it appears to suggest the presence of
    upregulating polymorphisms in the cystathione beta synthase (CBS)
    enzyme, though this may not be true in every case.

    Ratio of SAM to SAH: A ratio less than about 4.5 also represents low
    methylation capacity. Both the concentration of SAM and the ratio of
    concentrations of SAM to SAH are important in determining the
    methylation capacity.

    5-CH3-THF: This is a measure of the concentration of 5-methyl
    tetrahydrofolate in the blood plasma. It is normally the most
    abundant form of folate in the blood plasma. It is the form that
    serves as a reactant for the enzyme methionine synthase, and is thus
    the most important form for the methylation cycle. Many PWCs have a
    low value, consistent with a partial block in the methylation cycle.
    The simplified treatment approach includes FolaPro, which is
    commercially produced 5-CH3-THF, so that when this treatment is used,
    this value rises in nearly every PWC. If the concentration of 5-CH3-
    THF is within the reference range, but either SAM or the ratio of SAM
    to SAH is below the reference values, it suggests that there is a
    partial methylation cycle block and that it is caused by
    unavailability of sufficient bioactive B12, rather than
    unavailability of sufficient folate. I have seen this frequently,
    and I think it demonstrates that the “hijacking” of B12 is the root
    cause of most cases of partial methylation cycle block. Usually
    glutathione is low in these cases, which is consistent with lack of
    protection for B12, as well as with toxin buildup.

    10-Formyl-THF: This is a measure of the concentration of 10-formyl
    tetrahydrofolate in the blood plasma. It is usually on the low side in PWCs.
    This form of folate is involved in reactions to form purines, which
    form part of RNA and DNA as well as ATP.

    5-Formyl-THF: This is a measure of the concentration of 5-formyl
    tetrahydrofolate (also called folinic acid) in the blood plasma.
    Most but not all PWCs have a value on the low side. This form is not used
    directly as a substrate in one-carbon transfer reactions, but it can
    be converted into other forms of folate. It is one of the
    supplements in the simplified treatment approach, which helps to
    build up various other forms of folate.

    THF: This is a measure of the concentration of tetrahydrofolate in
    the blood plasma. In PWCs it is lower than the mean normal value of 3.7
    nanomoles per liter in most but not all PWCs. This is the
    fundamental chemically reduced form of folate from which several
    other reduced folate forms are made. The supplement folic acid is
    converted into THF by two sequential reactions catalyzed by
    dihydrofolate reductase (DHFR). THF is also a product of the
    reaction of the methionine synthase enzyme, and it is a reactant in
    the reaction that converts formiminoglutamate (figlu) into
    glutamate. If figlu is high in the Genova Diagnostics Metabolic
    Analysis Profile, it indicates that THF is low.

    Folic acid: This is a measure of the concentration of folic acid in
    the blood plasma. Low values suggest folic acid deficiency in the
    current diet. High values are sometimes associated with inability to
    convert folic acid into other forms of folate, such as because of
    polymorphisms in the DHFR enzyme. They may also be due to high
    supplementation of folic acid.

    Folinic acid (WB): This is a measure of the concentration of folinic
    acid in the whole blood. See comments on 5-formyl-THF above. It
    usually tracks with the plasma 5-formyl-THF concentration.

    Folic acid (RBC): This is a measure of the concentration of folic
    acid in the red blood cells. The red blood cells import folic acid
    when they are initially being formed, but during most of their
    approximately four-month life, they do not normally import, export, or use
    it. They simply serve as reservoirs for it, giving it up when they
    are broken down. Many PWCs have low values. This can be
    caused by a low folic acid status in the diet over the previous few
    months, since the population of RBCs at any time has ages ranging
    from zero to about four months. However, in CFS it can also be
    caused by damage to the cell membranes, which allows folic acid to
    leak out of the cells. Dr. Audhya reports that treatment with omega-
    3 fatty acids can raise this value over time.


    Rich
  4. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    Thanks Rich I need to get that testing done.

    My pain has subsided now that I dropped the chelators and did some juicing, along with keeping the minerals going.

    RLC. thanks for the comments. I have to wait for my hair to grow out so I have enought to test for metals. But I'm going/growing as fast as I can!

    I actually have another hypothesis about what is going on. I think my situation might be partially related to minerals depletion(which you mentioned with the zinc rlc. I know zinc is a biggy for me). Here is my brain fogged explanation. In the past I have taken chlorella which gives me similar GI dysfunction. When I take some minerals and drop the chelators my GI function gets better. Similar thing this time around I was taking mailc acid(a chleator) along with the other chelators I got a more severe attack. I think the attack might be related to minerals getting chelated, and especially in the gallbladder or pancreas where the dysfunction seems to be coming from. Somehow I need to figure out how to get minerals back into me, I just can't seem to absorb the vitamins and minerals and get them where I need them
  5. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    I was having a similar problem absorbing minerals enough to be chelating. My naturopath had me add betaine hydrochloride and that fixed the problem. I was taking 2 with each meal/snack. You should increase until you feel burning, then back off one. Or you can learn self muscle testing (from Youtube) and determine the right amount that way.

    In general, if you're not tolerating something, take a break until you get back to a baseline, and then restart at a much lower level. I've been known to start many supps at 1/256 (about the smallest you can divide), then gradually work up to a full dose.
  6. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    Good info on he betaine HCL. I'll give it shot. When studying zinc I learned that it can make one feel nauseated if his/her stomach aicd is low. I definetly get nauseated when adding zinc, so maybe that points to low stomach acid.


    I like the idea of backing off and trying again slowly, becuase I felt I defitenly had bad metals coming out while chelating.
  7. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    chocolate contains many phenols as well as vanillin. so If you react to vanillin or phenols this may be a sign of molybdenum deficiency. The reaction against sulfur containing substances (DMSA and DMPS contain sulfurs and inhibit G6PDH) suggests as well that you might profit from more molybdenum as well as NADH.

    regards, Joopiter
  8. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    hi markmc2001 sorry to hear about your hairloss, just a thought, but if you have a helpful doctor, they can do 24 hour urine tests and blood tests, that can be very accurate for measuring metal deficiency, if they find something they can often treat the problem very quickly. you could maybe get them to test your gallblader and pancreas as well, and check to see if you have some kind of malabsorbtion syndrome which is stopping you absorbing vitamins and minerals. all the best hope you start feeling better soon!
  9. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Mark.

    Low zinc can definitely cause problems with the methylation cycle as well as with production of stomach acid. It can be tested directly in blood or urine tests. Also, a low activity for alkaline phosphatase on a standard blood metabolic panel is an indicator of low zinc, as are white spots on the fingernails. People who have KPU (HPU) are particulary vulnerable to low zinc, as Dr. Klinghardt has reported.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  10. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    for what it is worth, getting some relief

    Thought I would give a quick update on my gallbladder/pancreus/stomach dysfunction(or whatever it is).

    LIke I mentioned before, messing around with chelators caused me to have some stomach cramps and whole gastro intestinal ecosystem dysfunction. It got to the point where the smallest amount of chelators would bring on stomach pain/ gallbladder/or pancreus pain, and other GI symtoms.

    What I am guessing happened is I had some mineral imbalance, combined with lead or other metals lodged in somewhere.

    What I have figured out is I can take some modified citrus pectin three capsules(half dose) right in the morning on an empty stomach. Then drink lots of liquids throughout the day. Then I take a few days off,while replenshing minerals. I then do another half dose of MCP.

    So if I take too much MCP, I get the cramps back. I guess becuase I am removing too much heavy metals without replacing the metals with minerals to allow the nerve cell transmission(or whatever happens, happen). But by giving myself a rest and replenishing minerals I think I am making progress removing metals because stomach/gallbladder/pancreas function has come back better. Also, I am getting a little clearing of my nasal passage congestion. For me, the clearing of the nasal passage congestion seems to be related to removing the metals somehow.

    In summary, the modified citrus pectin seems to be an effective chelator for lead yet needs some days in between to replenish zinc and other minerals where the lead is being dislodged.

    PS, I had an issue with metal detox before, and believe the MCP is getting to those metals I inadvertently lodged somewhere else while detoxing too much metal too fast without healthy enough excretion to keep up.

    Hope this helps somebody.

    Mark
  11. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Mark.

    Thanks for posting the update.
    I'm glad to hear of your progress, and hope it continues.

    Rich
  12. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    Mark which mineral supplement are you using? I am in the process of having mercury fillings out and will be starting chelation properly once these have finished. Do you have MCS or intolerances to supplements?
  13. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    Hi Rich,
    Thanks

    Hi Maryb,

    I do have reactions to certain supplements, but don't feel my supplement intolerances are related to MCS. I believe I am removing zinc, or some mineral that causes my GI ecosystem to lock up, In fact, I couldn't swallow food for awhile. I guess I lost motility to some organs while removing minerals(or whatever I did).

    I haven't experimented too much with brands of minerals, but it probably is a good idea. Maybe "KAL" brand magnesium glycinate seems like it might be better than the "NOW" brand magnesium citrate I have tried as well.

    My minerals generally come from my multivitamin, and also from costco where I buy "kirkland signature calcium citrate" which actually has a nice balance of zinc, magnesium, b6, copper, manganese and boron. (I think some people avoid copper becuase it is an oxidant or something but I have been tested and don't seem to be too high)
  14. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    Thanks Mark, I'm storing all the info for when I can start chelation.
  15. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    Mark

    My spcetracel test showed I was deficient in lots of things including zinc while using Costco multivitmains. Even a small scratch on my skin stayed unhealed for months. I took 50 mg zinc for almost a year to take care of the issue . I never take supplements in Multi form any more.
  16. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    Hi saraM

    Thanks for pointing that out. I take a seperate zinc supplement too. What is a spcetracel test? I just had a big chunk of my hair whacked off and mailed for a mineral test from doctors data I think, but have yet to get the results.
  17. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    Hi Mark

    Spectracel test is a blood test which shows the interacelluar level of about 30 vitamins, minerals and antioxidant. The cost is around 250. If you do a google search you will find more info.

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