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Can't figure out if this is me going too fast or paradoxical folate deficiency

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by sueami, May 21, 2014.

  1. sueami

    sueami Senior Member

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    I'm sorry, I would normally search threads for related questions, but my brain isn't up to it today, so I'm just going to ask for feedback directly.

    I started taking small dosages of folate and mb12 a month ago, starting at 400mg folate and a quarter tab of a 5k mb12. I've slowly titered up over the past month, first adding adenosycobalamin/dibencozide and then adding l-carnitine fumarate a week or so ago, once I got some 1500mg potassium chloride tablets in case the protocol triggered potassium deficiency. I have also been taking the Naturemade B complex that Freddd recommended.

    I am now taking 1600 mg folate in the am with 2500mg methylb and 4300mg dibencozide (that's half of a pill, but seems really high to me now that I'm looking at it) in the am, and I just bumped from 1200 to 1600 mg folate yesterday afternoon with 2500mg methylb then as well.

    This morning I woke up with benign positional paroxysmal vertigo, which I developed for the first time last May but which eventually resolved fully this January. This morning I did the positioning exercises that get it under control more or less but I was terribly dizzy and nauseous, then had chills and a dissociative sort of experience for an hour or so. I took a 1500mg potassium pill and some powdered magnesium citrate (maybe 300-400 mg, I wasn't well enough to measure carefully.) I'm feeling better now but nervous about taking methylation supplements.

    The vertigo could well be unrelated to methylation -- I've also been having a ton of hot flashes lately, which I attribute to perimenopause, though they did start about when I started trying methylation supplementation.

    I'm wondering if these symptoms of vertigo or chills or brain fog/dissociation are possibly linked to an imbalance in the methylation protocol or might signal the end of a "honeymoon" period with methylation and that I should just push through it. I also wonder if my dosages look right to people.

    Lastly, how long did it take for methylation supplementation to begin to improve fatigue and exercise intolerance for folks? I just don't know if should be pushing through or backing off right now.

    Thanks in advance,
    Sue
     
  2. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    Sue, when considering my advice that follows, please use your own good common sense in applying it to your particular case. I don't know how sick you are, what you can tolerate, or what you're willing to tolerate. I also don't know how good in general you were feeling from methylation supps before the vertigo re-started. Etc. This is based on my personal experience.

    I also don't know my SNP's, or much about SNP's in general. There may be something in your genetics that make increasing methylfolate too much too quickly not a good idea. Hopefully someone will chime in after looking at your signature,if that's the case.

    But it does sound like you may be experiencing some paradoxical deficiency. Flu-like symptoms are pretty classic. Try increasing your methylfolate incrementally. Increase your mB12 incrementally along with it. The increments are up to you. I was able to increase methylfolate by a large amount very quickly when Freddd's methylation protocol began making me ill, and I got better very quickly as a result, but I am not as chronically sick as some here. I was just very worn down.

    From what I've read the biggest actual danger (different from unpleasantness) from increasing methylfolate is potassium deficiency. We can't be sure, of course, but even doctors aren't 100% when they say something is unlikely to cause harm. Everyone's different. But from what I've read potassium deficiency is likely to be the only truly dangerous symptom any of us experience when doing these supps. The other symptoms are simply varying degrees of unpleasant.

    Keep taking small increments of potassium throughout the day. See if you can titrate to a point where you feel better. One dose isn't likely to do the whole trick.

    Another thing that might help you in the short term is to reduce or even stop LCF for a short time. I love LCF...I think it's done me as much good as anything...but it was months before I could tolerate more than a half capsule (250mg) per day. Too much LCF too early in the game may be pushing you into overdrive. Worth noting is that I'm now taking 1000mg/day and doing well. But that took six months, with most of that time being spent at 250mg/day.

    Freddd does say that recovery often means spiraling back through old symptoms returning, before they disappear completely. I don't know if that's your case or not with the vertigo, but thought I'd throw it out there.

    I wouldn't write your hot flashes off as perimenopause, either. I am of that age, too, and rarely get hot flashes any more, but am still regular like clockwork so not giving up the monthly ghost yet. ;) Point being that hot flashes are a sign of imbalance, regardless of whether you're doing methylation supps or not. We've been conditioned to think they're the norm during "those years", but in reality, healthy women with well balanced physiology don't get many of them. It's just that there's so few truly healthy women out there any more, with the sorry state of our food supply and whatnot, we think poor female health during the changing years is normal.

    Also, how's your diet? I find that the right diet is the foundation for all health, with or without methylation supps. "Right" is also subjective in that not everyone can eat the same things, but I find that eating animal protein and fruit, healthy fats, plus some milk & cheese, the occasional starchy tuber and veggies is what does me best. No processed foods at all. You might take a look at what you're eating to see if there's anything you can tweak that might make you feel better.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2014
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  3. sueami

    sueami Senior Member

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    Thank you, Whoda, for that feedback. My diet is quite clean, for the most part. I was on a very low carb anti-candida diet for the last six months of last year; I started adding in a bit of fruit, gluten and a moderate amount of dairy at the start of this year. My new holistic physician has recently suggested my going off dairy, gluten and my home-roasted decaf coffee to work on gut healing. I'm trying to keep it low sugar and it's almost entirely home-cooked.

    As for my overall health, I've been getting episodically more fatigued/crashy over the last 4 1/2 years, after a viral infection I couldn't seem to kick. This episode of fatigue, exercise intolerance and PEM has been with me more or less since January. Last year I crashed from Feb to May but then felt reasonably normal from June on. I'm on high dose Vit D and expected it to help me more than it seems to have yet this year.

    As for the methylation process, I haven't really noticed significant impacts from titrating up, though from time to time I do have some anxiety/heart palpitation-type feelings and I've rested and taken potassium when that happens. I do feel a bit more wonky in the neurotransmitter arena, going from anxious to euphoric in the course of an hour or two in the mornings or early afternoons, which I attribute to the b-12/folate making something happen.

    I shall back off on the L-carnitine. The recommended brand has 855 mg per capsule but I could eyeball it and separate out about half the capsule. Dunno why it would take a week or so to disregulate me, but given your feedback about hot flashes, maybe I've been experiencing disregulation for longer than I realized.

    I'll dose out my potassium through the day; now that I know I can just use some No-salt it should be easier to do.

    Thanks again for the feedback. I'm not inclined to stop methylation but I will drop it back a 400mg of folate step and see how I feel. I'll consider hot flashes as one potential feedback for me, since their resurgence corresponds with my titrating up.

    Again, many thanks!
     
  4. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    @sueami Have you ever tried hydroxyB12? I ask because I notice you have some COMT snp's and sometimes COMT folks do better with hydroxyB12 than methylB12
     
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  5. sueami

    sueami Senior Member

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    No, I haven't. Is that usually substituted for the Methylb12?
     
  6. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    @sueami Yes its available as a sublingual. I would suggest you take a look at the topics in the Genetic section of the forum to see what others with COMT are saying about it. You can use the goggle search function that can search short words and letters like COMT. Its on the front page at the bottom. Do not use the search at the top of the page on the right, its not very good especially for short words. Theres lots of information in the genetics forum that may give you some insight. I know some with COMT do take methylb12 and perhaps because you are +/- it might be ok for you but gathering more info from others that are COMT could be useful Sorry I can't give you more tips but I don't have COMT so have not done much reading about it. I would be curious to know what you find out
     
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  7. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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  8. sueami

    sueami Senior Member

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    @juniemarie Thank you for that link and the tip on searching individual forums. I'm going to read through that thread next, but I did just find this thread below that leads me to suspect that my (heedless, sigh) experiment with taking some sublingual GABA the day prior may have caused this little crisis. I took it because it was helping some people with anxiety feelings, but I read in this thread that it can further deplete potassium and it creates ammonia in the process. My gut function was unexpectedly disrupted as well, which shouldn't be happening with a purely inner ear crystal imbalance. I will try substituting hydroxy if things do not settle down shortly, and I will sure as heck stop experimenting with random supplements.

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...olate-cause-gaba-to-reverse-its-effect.29083/
     
  9. sueami

    sueami Senior Member

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    Actually, reading through that post you linked to, @juniemarie I am going to swithc to hydroxycobalamin and see what the effects are. Thanks!
     
  10. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    @sueami Its all trial and error unfortunately. Sometimes we all will grab onto something that has helped others only to find out it does not help us or worse causes us to loose ground. Its called desperation….to be well. All and all PR is one of the best places to try and piece the puzzle together. There is a mind boggling amount of useful info here.
    Did you notice on that thread it was mixed between COMT folks who did well on methylb12 and those who didn't.
    I would suggest posting a topic in that section of the forum asking COMT people to tell you their experience with methyl and hdroxyb12 and you may get some more up to date info on how people are doing since that thread. You can also PM people and ask how they are progressing on which ever b12 they take. Just getting feedback would be useful to you but keep in mind its not written in stone and its extremely individual….still you may resonate with someone else's reactions/symptoms which could lead you down a path
    Do let us know your progress with updates, it helps everyone to learn and adds to the wealth of information here.
     
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