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Can NSAID's such as Ibrufen cause CFS ?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by quasar, Apr 26, 2017.

  1. quasar

    quasar

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    I had nose and sinusitis surgery. After this operation, I used antibiotic and Ibrufen. When I was worst, I used Ibrufen and it made me feel better for 24 hours. However 24 hour after, I returned to feel bad. Then I took again, until I finished this drug.

    I don't take this drug for 1 month. I search that these drugs can be harmful for intestinal permeability that cause chronic fatigue.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19148789

    Antibiotic or Ibrufen is responsible for my fatigue, or both. Because before surgery, I was very healthy. I think most of us don't recognize that all drugs damage our cells, which bring us chronic fatigue.

    I start to have leaky gut diet and consume such supplement, L glutamine, Zinc, Magnesium, Coenzym q10, Coconut oil and Digestive Enzyme. Also, It is recommended that Colostrum can be benefical for leaky gut, especially when NSAID's cause leaky gut, however it's a dairy product which I cannot tolerate.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11352778

    Do you have any idea about Ibrufen and Colostrum? And What is your suggestion for me?
     
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  2. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    No. Ibruprofen does not cause the disease that is known as ME/CFS. It wasn't even invented when many of us first became ill. And most of us here weren't on antibiotics when we got ill, so no, that's not a likely cause either.

    I find NSAIDs like Ibuprofen quite good for relieving my worst MECFS symptoms, so I'm not surprised you felt a bit better on them too.
     
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  3. quasar

    quasar

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    But look at the recent searches, especially Columbia University's. They found out imbalanced microbiome on gut. What causes imbalanced microbiome on gut? I think antibiotics and NSAIDs are responsible too much.

    I think you should not take ibrufen. It is like a poison that medicine cannot recognize yet.
     
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  4. ChrisD

    ChrisD Senior Member

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    Hi @quasar I had all of my Wisdom teeth removed a few years ago in a time when I was quite stressed anyway (Weak gut) and had general anaesthetic, Antibiotics and Strong NSAIDS (Naproxen) as well as Cocodamol, over the course of a month. I feel strongly that this is a time when some considerable damage was done to my Gut and potentially Liver as well. I wonder if the health service should have assessed my health at the time and realised that I was not in a fit state for that kind of bombarment of drugs....
     
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  5. Aerowallah

    Aerowallah

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    I posted elsewhere but got no reaction. I did not see this thread at the time.

    I think there is an issue with Cortisol and NSAIDs.

    I'm having mercury fillings removed, and with a good protocol had no problem stirring up mercury but lots of pain from hard porcelain fillings that harden in minutes and cause bite issues, muscle / tendon pain, and repeat visits to grind down. Softer mercury amalgams took 24 hours to harden and the bite adjusted better!

    I had to take a max. dose of ibuprofen, about 3-4,000 mg daily for a few weeks. I take it with kefir so NO gut issues at all in that short time, but a kind of weakness (different from the familiar ME weakness) presented after a week or so.

    Some ME'rs feel better supplementing their low cortisol with NSAIDs -- an "exogenous replacement" for natural cortisol. But people with very low cortisol have to taper when getting off NSAIDs or steroids or they can get addisonian issues because, as I understand it, the adrenals rest when supplementing and produce less cortisol over time. That may not be a trigger for ME but it probably contributes for those with long-term pain issues.

    If I woke up with pain at 4am and took 5 motrin I feel like I was flattening my morning cortisol spike, and felt weak for the rest of the day. I'm tapering off now but feel weak when the muscle pain flares, when I didn't feel week before in the weeks before resorting to Motrin.

    Is it possible to lower cortisol levels on a max daily dose of NSAIDs for just a few weeks?
     
  6. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    NSAIDs are believed to work by lowering levels of two enzymes that are important for making prostaglandins, which are compounds that promote inflammation. They might also work stop neutrophils from responding to inflammatory signals, which might further contribute to their ant-inflammatory properties

    A recent study shows that the most common NSAIDs have no effect on cortisol levels.

    So NSAIDS make you feel better by reducing some types of inflammatory responses, but they don't work on cortisol, and they certainly don't replace cortisol.

    You need to taper off corticosteroids but not off NSAIDs.

    I'm not sure why you're feeling weak, because most of the side effects associated with NSAIDs are stomach-related things - either that or headaches or light-headedness. But that's certainly a really big dose you're taking, so maybe at those doses you might feel worse? Its possible I suppose that with a really large dose, as you come off it, there may be some odd things happening to your blood pressure. Maybe these things exacerbate your ME symptoms for a bit.
     
  7. DoggerFisher

    DoggerFisher

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    I recently discovered Ibuprofen interferes with my heart rhythm so stopped using it. In childhood I was constantly prescribed anti-biotics for everything (mostly throat and glandular symptoms probably me/cfs even then) and I suspect this could have been contributory in my case.
     
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  8. Aerowallah

    Aerowallah

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    Thanks, Woolie. I'd love to see a link to that study. What I'm finding doesn't seem definitive or test on ME'ers with cortisol issues, only "healthy volunteers."

    I was wondering--

    Fatigue is also a symptom of ELEVATED cortisol.

    Could the pain/inflammation itself be spiking natural cortisol production causing fatigue. Is that why pain is draining?

    In which case wouldn't NSAIDs lower cortisol in the sense of reducing inflammation and the need for production of natural hormone?

    Steady toothache for two months is going to overwork adrenals--but I'm guessing the fatigue may have more to do in the short term with elevated cortisol production, and NSAIDs help more than they hinder (absent gut issues).
     
  9. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    @Aerowallah, here is the article I was probably thinking of - not that recent, really.

    https://www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668080/

    There's also this one below, which looked at Rheuamtoid arthritis, and actually did find a temporary drop in cortisol secretion with fairly big regular doses of naproxen (a fairly heavy duty NSAID, 1000mg per day). But the effect is tiny and was barely statistically reliable.

    http://www.clinexprheumatol.org/article.asp?a=4083

    This article reviews the evidence for HPA abnormalities in MECFS, and concludes that reduced cortisol is probably not the cause, but a downstream effect of immunological abnormalities:

    https://link-springer-com/article/10.1007/s12035-016-0170-2

    btw, I went on corticosteriods when I had a major crash. It was either that or lose my job, so I thought it worth a risk. It gave me immediate relief and a got back to work in a few days. 40mg daily. I tapered off after that (quite slowly), but I tried it once again in another bad crash and didn't get anywhere near the same benefit.
     
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  10. Aerowallah

    Aerowallah

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    Thanks, Woolie. As usual, too many moving parts! I'm off all NSAIDs for days now but the new onset of fatigue persists. The fact that I am doing slooow methylation at the same time suggests my issues may be fun with B12 and folate etc etc.!!
     
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  11. sb4

    sb4 Senior Member

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    My symptoms started around the time I got really bad tonsillitis and took too much NSAIDs on an empty stomach, ending in a stomach/duodenal ulcer. I have always wandered how much the NSAIDs had to play. Maybe they weakened my gut lining enough to allow viruses free access to blood, maybe they altered gut flora, or maybe it was just a coincidence and the virus from tonsillitus is to blame.
     
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  12. bombsh3ll

    bombsh3ll

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    I actually started taking 400mg ibuprofen three times daily around a year and a half into my illness to help with low blood volume. It has fluid retaining properties which is one reason NSAIDs are not recommended in high BP or heart disease. It definitely helps reduce postprandial hypotension and brain fog for me. Of course regular use can cause gastritis - I take Omeprazole which I have been on for many years before and since ME.
     
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  13. wonderoushope

    wonderoushope Senior Member

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    I think it caused my gastritis the first time and since then I keep getting reoccurring gastritis.

    Technically I've taken it every month since I've been a teen, because of terrible period cramps. I took up to 4-8 a day for about 3 days each month since a teen. I didn't even know they were NSAID's.

    Then about 4 - 5 years ago I got terrible debilitating migraines, so I took NSAID's every day, because I had no clue they can be so bad for you and I was desperate. In Australia at the time, they said something like take no more than 6 tablets a day, and then not long after they were warning all over the news that you should not have them and they can cause stomach ulcers (and then for a time they only allowed you to buy something like 4 tablets over the counter). Not long after I was diagnosed with gastritis.

    I have given up the NSAID's completely. I stopped the NSAID's for migraines about 4 years ago. I occasionally have panadol. I have a mirena now, so don't need to take NSAID for period cramps (but was still taking them up until a year ago).

    I never can seem to get my gastritis under control. I admit though I was drinking a lot of coffee. I am now on the RPAH diet, I suspect I have gastritis again, but I react to lots of things, still on the strict diet phase. Orange oil Vit D set me off the other day for three days (was a mistake I wasn't meant to have it on the diet).

    I've always had IBS issues since a teen (since getting my period and taking NSAID's) and suspect NSAID's did not help with the cause.

    I personally think somehow it has played a part in my CFS symptoms. They started not too long after being diagnosed with gastritis the first time around.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
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  14. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    @wonderoushope, I think you did right! IBS is just the situation where NSAIDs could be a bad choice. They do seem to cause gastric irritation.

    I really like NSAIDs - they are good at managing really bad headache and feeling of fever at night, which I get when in a crash, and which stops me from sleeping. So worth it for me, because the sleep seems to be really important. Also I don't have any gastric problems, so its overall, a good bet for me. But even so I generally don't take them during the day unless things are really, really bad - just cos, you know, best not to use unless really necessary.

    Its impossible to know what factors could have triggered onset for any of us. I worry myself about my alcohol consumption at the time (I was a partying student), and also whether I rested enough at first. It seems to me that the chances that NSAIDs are involved would be really low. But of course, we just can't know for sure.
     
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