Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dannybex, Jun 2, 2011.
Thanks in advance,
In a person whose cells have normal intracellular B12 processing enzymes, methyl-B12 can indeed be converted to adenosyl-B12. Normally, the various forms of B12 that are absrorbed by the gut enter the cells attached to the carrier molecule transcobalamin, via endocytosis of transcobalamin receptors in the plasma membranes of the cells. One of first things that happens is that the ligand (methyl-, adenosyl-, cyano-, hydroxo-, aquo-, or glutathionyl-) is removed, and the cobalamin is converted to either adenosyl- or methyl-B12 as needed by the cell. If large dosages are taken sublingually, transdermally or by injection, so that the transcobalamin becomes saturated, the excess B12 will be carried in the blood in the unbound state. Apparently, some of this is able to diffuse into cells without benefit of transporters and receptors, and can be used directly by the cells. It is not clear whether B12 that comes in this way can be converted from one form to another. I don't think that has been studied.
Can Methyl-b12 convert to Adeno-b12?
I'm including Rich's answer in order to build on some of it. The answer is "Normally yes, to a limited extent". In a normal healthy functioning body the amount converted will typically maintain health, but is not anywhere near enough to restore it. Research has indicated that it takes about 6mcg to fully occupy the transport system. 6mcg is also a typical, depending upon what research you read, daily input. It is also the approximate daily loss in the bile. There is no reason known at this time why the TC2, can't make several round trips daily becoming HTC2 transporting the cobalamin to the cells. It has been suggested that the daily total transport capacity is 20-30mcg/day, if available for transport. Let' us suppose that a person's muscles are down 2mg, about 40% of what is suggested as the total of 5mg of the body. This would cause major abnormal fatigue and mitochondria malfunction. So if 10mcg of the surplus over replacement is actually converted to adb12 that goes to the muscles it would take 200 days to get that built up to "normal". However, the pragmatic evidence is that such a thing virtuially NEVER happens. It doesn't happen taking a whole lot of mb12 or hycbl for 200 days or more. A direct taking of adb12 will make a significant noticeable difference respective of how much other cobalamin is actually taken. This happens over and over again with methylb12 as well. It doesn't matter how much cycbl, hycbl or adb12 is taken, one never gets to the point where mb12 doesn't make a difference. Yet, if a person has no symptoms of the b12 deficiency type, and never has had, taking either or both active forms makes no noticeable difference. It might be comforting to have the hypothesis that any form of cobalamin can replace all other forms, but it just doesn't work that way. Hycbl doesn't work for any significant number of symptoms for 1/3 of people and doesn't work on 2/3 of symptoms for the other 2/3 of people. Theory and hypothesis which says it "should" is flawed.
If large dosages are taken sublingually, transdermally or by injection, so that the transcobalamin becomes saturated, the excess B12 will be carried in the blood in the unbound state. Apparently, some of this is able to diffuse into cells without benefit of transporters and receptors, and can be used directly by the cells. It is not clear whether B12 that comes in this way can be converted from one form to another. I don't think that has been studied.
A single 1mg 5 star mb12 will put at best about 250 mcg into serum, not a "large" dose by any realistic standard, but quite sufficient to supply the mb12 to starving cells throughout the body. Adb12 works similarly. It is very clear that diffusion works very well at NORMAL small sublingual doses and SMALL injections (250mcg is 1/4 of the usual minimum injection). 6mcg is enough to saturate TC2 to HTC2 leaving 244mcg for diffusion throughout the body. Effects can be felt within 5 minutes in those sufficiently deficient. The transport system is not known to work that quickly. For a person to be that deficient for years and years typically indicates that something isn't working right at some point in the digestion, absorption or transport systems so assuming that everything must be working in a person who is already already deficient is totally bogus. Methylb12, adb12 plus Metafolin with other cofactors will deal with about 99% of the deficiency symptoms in about 99% of people. Following theory leaves 7/9 of person-symptoms as untreatable mystery diseases.
Thanks Rich and Fred,
I appreciate your replies.
I realize I'm probably not getting 'enough', but as I and others have experienced, I have to start slow. Believe me, I wish I could take high doses right away, but just can't tolerate it.
I almost went with injections, but decided to go with nebulized methyl b12 -- my doc preferred the methyl -- as I've been having the same problem as others with the sublinguals: Tooth and oral pain after about a week or so of starting them (both the Jarrow mb12, and the Source Naturals Adb12) -- and that was with 1/4 or less tablet pieces. I stopped for 3 days, tooth/mouth pain went away, then started again, and pain came back (felt like a cavity flaring) within a day or two.
I realize nebulizing might not as ideal as injections or sublinguals, but feel like for the moment, I don't have much of a choice, and it's better than nothing. Perhaps to Fred's horror, my doc has added small amounts of glutathione to the nebulizing, to protect the b12 from being hijacked by toxins). My reduced glutathione was very low way back last August, and is no doubt lower now.
Perhaps by mid July I can switch to injections (when I'm "stronger"), and in the meantime, find some other way to get the ad12 in my system at higher doses. Suggestions are always appreciated.
Thanks to you both for your input -- very much appreciated as always.
An alternative method of using taking a sublingual Source Natural Adb12 or mb12 for that matter that would likely work well but more slowly, would be rectal. Absorption tends to be quite high but takes hours longer. Do you brush and floss your teeth daily? If you don't floss daily you will have inflammation, harbor infection and have gum bleeding when brushing is quite possible.
One end or the other!
I have to ask this question: Have you tried it? Is that how you know that it takes hours longer? I don't mean to be glib at all...just wondering where that info comes from.
I do brush and floss daily -- and when I went to the dentist a year ago I was surprised my teeth weren't in a lot worse shape. They ARE in terrible shape, (need 3 crowns, have many cavities, etc.) but pockets were all 1's or 2's with the exception of one "4" -- but haven't been able to afford dental work in 8 years, and still can't...so am trying everything else first. We think doctors charge a lot, but that's nothing compared to dentists.
Also, would want to get my b12 levels a lot higher before having any work done -- if possible. Certainly if the pain comes back, gets worse and worse, then I'd have to find a way to get in. But just that cleaning I had done last year wiped me out for 3-4-5 days. Felt like I had MS.
The pain has subsided today -- I didn't have any fresh cherries this morning, and haven't done any sublinguals for 5-6 days. Perhaps it was the fructose that was causing it...we'll see.
(I just emailed the doc I worked with in 2002-2003 to see if he'll prescribe b12 shots for me like he did back then.)
Do you know if a thread was ever started to ask Jarrow, etc., to make a sublingual without citric acid? If so, I think that would be a great idea.
Here's their contact info...but would probably be good to start a separate thread:
I have absolutely no problem with the rectal administration method of B12, but my concern would be whether the other substances in the sublinguals might effect the lining of the rectum. Does anyone far more knowledgeable than I, have any thoughts on this issue?
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