Julie Rehmeyer's 'Through the Shadowlands'
Writer Never Give Up talks about Julie Rehmeyer's new book "Through the Shadowlands: A Science Writer's Odyssey into an Illness Science Doesn't Understand" and shares an interview with Julie ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Can B12 without Methylfolate Cause Problems?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by cobain_justinsane, Apr 1, 2015.

  1. cobain_justinsane

    cobain_justinsane

    Messages:
    53
    Likes:
    17
    Hello all

    I am going to start the methylation protocol again but this time just start on B12 first and try and get up to a high dose before starting the methylfolate. I am doing this because when trying this before I believe I have run into methyl-trap symptoms. As I have low B12 levels (low 200's). So I'd like to try upping my B12 first before starting methlfolate.

    I just finished going through, A [Not so] Concise Guide to Freddd’s Protocol June 2014

    In the document I noticed that there is some mention that taking low doses of B12 (500mcg) could cause problems. Also I noticed that it's mentioned that taking B12 without methylfolate could cause B12/folate deficiency, insufficiency symptoms. But, I do not understand why.

    Can anybody clarify these theory's or give any insight as to taking B12 before starting methylfolate and getting B12 levels up.

    I am MTHFR compound heterozygous, Mutliple homozygous MTR MTRR, MAO A, and NO COMT.

    Thank you very much
     
  2. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

    Messages:
    625
    Likes:
    785
    USA
    I found taking higher doses B12 can cause or increase folate insufficiency symptoms. I use sustained release forms of both to minimize timing problems, "methyl trap" or insufficiency issues
     
  3. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,202
    Likes:
    700
    Arizona, USA
    The effect of the (methyl)B12 is to use up methylfolate in the chemical equation:
    methylfolate(MTHF) + homocysteine ---> folate(THF) + methionine

    The B12 doesn't show up in the equation itself because it is not used up in the reaction, but helps the enzyme (MTR) function that causes this reaction to go.

    So if you don't have enough methylfolate to begin with, or if it is not being replenished as quickly as it is used up, you can develop methylfolate deficiency symptoms as a result of taking the B12. At least theoretically. If you are indeed compound heterozygous (and not simple heterozygous...and how would you know?) for MTHFR, it is likely that your methylfolate-regenerating capacity is diminished to the point it could be a problem.

    There's the theory. A lot of factors play into it, so I can't begin to say what will actually happen. One of my favorite quotes is "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're different". Wish I knew who said that.
     
    Gondwanaland, mgk and whodathunkit like this.
  4. mgk

    mgk Senior Member

    Messages:
    149
    Likes:
    279
    Ben Lynch made an interesting point about this in one of his videos that I hadn't seen before. Apparently giving B12 without adequate folate can increase oxidative stress and cause all sorts of weird symptoms because one of the intermediate forms of B12 known as Cbl(I) is very reactive and folate is needed to convert it back to methylcobalamin.

    See around 43:07 in this video.
     
    vortterx and Gondwanaland like this.
  5. cobain_justinsane

    cobain_justinsane

    Messages:
    53
    Likes:
    17
    The second time I tried to start the methylation protocol I felt quite depressed on 500 mcgMb12 and 400 mcg Mfolate. When I increased it to 1000mch B12 and 2000 Mfolate, the depression got even worse. I am thinking it is the higher folate levels that are causing symptoms. As I'm quite low in B12 (as seen on my blood tests). I have a feeling I might be going into a methyl-trap because I don't have enough B12 on board first.

    @Critterina
    "If you are indeed compound heterozygous (and not simple heterozygous...and how would you know?) for MTHFR"

    Not sure what you meant by this but, I had my 23andme done and my raw data shows that I am C677T +/- and 1298C +/-.

    I am also wondering, with my 4 +/- MTRR mutations, if I have a very high need for b12. As on heartfixers site, it says people with MTRR mutations may need as much as 15000mcg of Mb12 a day.

    Thanks everyone. More Input is welcome


     
  6. cobain_justinsane

    cobain_justinsane

    Messages:
    53
    Likes:
    17
    Maybe wondering if

    @aturdles

    Could provide some insight? I read on the forums that you struggled with some neurological problems and had trouble with methylfolate before starting b12. Just wondering what your experiences were when getting things sorted out.

    or

    @stridor

    Could you offer any insight? I noticed you spoke of MTRR mutations and neurological issues. What were some of your experiences getting through startup and did you need B12 first? Did you need a lot of B12 due to your MTRR mutation.

    I'm sorry guys. I'm just struggling with things right now and I'm really frightened about starting these supplements again as taking both B12 and Mfolate in the past have really sent me into a pretty bad depression. I think it could possibly be methyl trap and I may need to start with B12 and get my levels up before thinking about methylflate.

    Any insight would be greatly appreciated
     
  7. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

    Messages:
    296
    Likes:
    312
    Vic, AU
    I would just try it, trust your instincts, it is not going to hurt taking some B12 for a couple of weeks with little methylfolate, surely? Do not know though why you would take such a large dose of methylfolate (2000mcg) though off the bat?

    I chew up B12 like candy, love it and it is completely the opposite for methylfolate, have had horrible experiences with it at just 400-800mcg daily. Have been taking a majority of B12 (1-2k mcg daily) for like 16 months now on little methyfolate and no issues (at least no set backs), I do make sure though to throw in maybe 400mcg every 2-3 days. If I had my time again I think I would find a very low dose of methylfolate, 50-100mcg for daily use and try to build up; am currently trying to add more of it, and to think it has taken this long to potentially do so.
     
  8. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,101
    Likes:
    768
    USA
    With B12 deficiency, folate can buld up and become neurotoxic.

    If there's gut dysbiosis, or SIBO, folate can be overproduced by the bacteria.

    I've had very high serum folate, and extreme symptoms of B12 deficiency. ( Didn't have it measured until after supplemented. Had a very high MCV, MCH)
    It was very painful.

    For the past 2 years, I've taken only B12, ( methyl and hydroxo).

    I've been tackling the SIBO, and been able to reduce the B12 dosage. Still can't tolerate much folate, yet.
     
  9. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

    Messages:
    806
    Likes:
    2,917
    Powassan, Ontario
    @cobain_justinsane
    When I started mercury detox, I hadn't even heard about methylation. I was following a Dr's advice and trying to save my adrenals with IV's of ACE and Vit C. There were B vit as well and they told me that I was getting mB12. I was to take the oral vit/mineral and I did. It had 1400 mcg of mfolate and only 100 mcg of cyanocobalamin.

    I was sick as a dog. The so-called mB12 was left out on the counter in the light as was probably more hydroxocobalamin that anything.

    When I started real mB12 it was a revelation. Depression and diabetes insipidus were gone within 2-3 days.

    When we have something so profound like this happen, the left side of the brain tries to make sense of it and I came up with some theories to explain things. But that is all they are, theories.

    Included in my ideas are that TCN2 might play a factor, as might MTRR. I had MTR problems in the form of metal toxicity. This works in kind of an opposite way. My understanding is that MTR++ is to some degree an up-regulation. Mercury does the opposite and slows things done at this point in the pathway.

    The more mB12 I took the better I got and I pushed it for a couple of years. I have slowed down to 1 mg twice daily by injection. Resign yourself to needing to do some experimentation. There are people taking much more than myself and at my peak I would have been absorbing around 9000 mcg daily which is less than a third of what Freddd neeeds.

    When you get into these higher doses, many have gotten into trouble with their potassium and I ran out of B2 a couple of times.
     
  10. cobain_justinsane

    cobain_justinsane

    Messages:
    53
    Likes:
    17
    @stridor

    Thanks for the information!

    I think that's what it comes down to. Me willing to experiment. I have to work up the guts to do it again. As the last two times it's been a doozie.

    I have seen B2 mentioned quite a bit on the forum. You also mention using B2. What are the folks on here using it for? How does it help with the methylation cycle?

    Also you mention TCN2 I'll look into that and see if there's anything going on there with me.

    Thanks for the reply!
     
  11. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

    Messages:
    296
    Likes:
    312
    Vic, AU
    @cobain_justinsane

    As I understand it extra B2 is to help support nitric oxide, BH4 and heme. The bio chemist who has helped me out recommends up to 500mg of B2 daily and is one of the most important cofactors when doing methylation treatment.

    Have you tried starting up very slowly? Really you should just start with B12 once to twice a week, just see how you react to this, add a little methylfolate here and there, a b complex once a week. Takes time, I tried to rush it to begin with because B12 was so great but it went pretty badly, ended up on 1000mcg methyl/adenosyl mix only 2-3 times a week for several months, after my initial blow out.
     
    stridor likes this.
  12. Nikki7

    Nikki7

    Messages:
    87
    Likes:
    14
    @Crux
    Hey! In researching I saw you have experienced things like me. I, too, have sibo and a high mcv which has been labeled fibromyalgia. Have you had any success treating sibo? I was in hopes starting methylation would help. I was on antibiotics and wound up worse...is why my research led me here :( I don't do well trying to up folate...though I feel I hit that donut hole deficiency. It's making this hard to know what to do next. Hope you're doing better!
    Just checking!
     
    Crux likes this.
  13. Nikki7

    Nikki7

    Messages:
    87
    Likes:
    14
     
  14. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,101
    Likes:
    768
    USA
    Hi @Nikki7 ,

    Have you had folate levels measured? The mcv can be high from B12 deficiency without folate def. My serum folate got very high from sibo, but this doesn't always happen. It depends on the types of bacteria.

    Yes, but I finally resorted to abx after almost a year of herbs, tinctures, and dietary restrictions.
    Antibiotics may not work for everyone, because they aren't always specific to the bacteria. ( I haven't been tested, so I don't know which were overgrown.)

    If I had some money, I would do some stool testing, even though it's faulty.

    Many folks here start the folate in very low doses, then increase.
    I used to take it before the sibo really took hold. I still don't tolerate it, but there's plenty in my diet.

    After treatment, I've been able to reduce the B12 subs., but I still take 5mgs. daily. May reduce in the future.

    Thank you for the good wishes, and the same to you!
     
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  15. Nikki7

    Nikki7

    Messages:
    87
    Likes:
    14
    @Crux
    Thanks for your input! My folate and b12 levels looked ok via testing but I've done better (less pain) since starting methylation protocol...I have a genetic mutation C677T which shows a need for both mb12 and methylfolate. I'm glad you're doing better! I'll retest for sibo next week.
     
  16. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,101
    Likes:
    768
    USA
    I'm glad you're better. It could be the 'start up' side effects we've all discussed then. As you can see, many folks here have great improvements taking folate along with the B12.

    Hope you can sort the sibo issue. It could be one cause of B12 deficiency and elevated mcv. I've tried to find a good paper listing the microbes that use/steal our B12, but I haven't found enough specific info.
     
    Nikki7 likes this.
  17. Nikki7

    Nikki7

    Messages:
    87
    Likes:
    14
    Id love to better understand what caused my Sibo and what happened to my b12---what organism is a good question. I know genetically I am predisposed for infection since I wasn't aware of the issue and taking supplements then. I'll get back to you if I can find out what type of bacteria this is @Crux
     
    Crux likes this.
  18. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,101
    Likes:
    768
    USA
    Thanks!
     
  19. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

    Messages:
    711
    Likes:
    418
    Cambodia
    @Sherpa, sustained release meaning transdermal?

    If so, do you use the oils? And if so, how have they gone?

    Thanks...

     
  20. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

    Messages:
    711
    Likes:
    418
    Cambodia
    It seems to have been Yogi Berra. Who also said, "When you come to a fork in the road, take it."
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page