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Calling all supplement experts

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by mabelark, Jan 6, 2014.

  1. mabelark

    mabelark

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    Since discovering this site I’ve been experimenting with supplements for well over a year. I've yet to be diagnosed as having ME, but have been suffering from chronic fatigue, low mood and pain for a decade. I’m happy to report benefits when it comes to all three areas. I attribute these benefits to lurking on these boards and using recommended supplements.

    Reviewing my supplementing regime, which is a combination of Hip's and Fredd's "protocols", it looks a little excessive (see bottom of this post). So the goal is to eliminate everything that can't be rationalized as having concrete benefits. I’ve surely missed some things or new developments knowledge wise. I’m therefore reaching out to all knowledgeable folks for opinions and thoughts!

    (Fredd)
    • methyl b12 5 mg
    • adenosyl b12 2 mg
    • TMG 1 g
    • metafolin 800 mcg (x2)
    • potassium 198 mg
    • ALA 150 mg
    • l-carnitine fumerate 500 mg
    (Hip)
    • amisulpride 25 mg
    • n-a-g 750 mg (x2)
    • flax seed oil
    • selenium (on trial)
    (Other / cofactors)
    • vitamin b complex (thorne stress complex)
    • vitamin c 1 g
    • vitamin d 5000 iu (+k2 every other day)
    • magnsium, melatonin (sleep)
    • l-optizinc 30 mg
    • coq10 100 mg
    • probiotics
    • curcumin (+omega 3 for absorption)
    • molybdenum (on trial)
     
  2. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    For what is worth I did not find any benefit from taking NAG, even at higher doses than the ones Hip suggests. I have obvious and clinically confirmed intestinal inflammation/leaky gut and social phobia, which is a form of anxiety after all.
     
  3. mabelark

    mabelark

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    Beyond,

    That's interesting. In my experience NAG can be quite useful when it comes to an inflammed gut. Before taking it I couldn't drink any amount of coffee or eat spicy food without immediate diarrhea. Even halving the dose of NAG to only once a day made me start to feel pain/swelling in my gut once again.
     
  4. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Yeah theorically NAG is useful, it just wasn´t for me. It sucks when the science says something, the people´s experience confirms it, but when you actually go and try that thing, it does not work for you.
     
  5. Gandalf

    Gandalf

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    @mabelark
    I think you will have to find out for yourself what you can cut away by leaving out certain supplements at a time.

    I also have a fairly long list of supplements but I'm doing the same as you are.
    All I know is that metafolin and potassium are essential.
    For me the 2 are a must have.

    All others I take make me feel a bit better, but not as much as metafolin.

    Maybe you might not need melatonin due to already treating methylation. Your melatonin should increase by itself if I got my facts straight.

    Also Id like to know how good l-carnitine fumerate works for you?

    thx
     
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    N-acetyl-glucosamine (NAG) appears to be good for generalized anxiety disorder (GAD), which is what I had. So far, I am aware of around a dozen or so people with GAD who have tried NAG, and around half of them told me they had good or very good results from NAG (but the other half said they did not benefit at all).

    However, as for anxiety disorders other than GAD, such as panic disorder or social phobia, I am not sure how well NAG might work.

    Anxiety disorders include:
    Generalized anxiety disorder
    Panic disorder
    Phobias, like agoraphobia
    Social anxiety disorder
    Obsessive-compulsive disorder
    Post-traumatic stress disorder

    It would certainly be interesting to see if NAG might also work for these other anxiety disorders, but so far it is mostly people with GAD that have tried NAG.

    Though there are other good anti-anxiety supplements on my list, and if NAG did not work for you, it is quite possible that some of these other anti-anxiety supplements will.


    By the way, have you tried choline bitartrate or phosphatidylcholine 1000 mg @Beyond? I read that this is beneficial for social anxiety. Choline also helps a little bit for the brain fog of ME/CFS, I find.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
  7. mabelark

    mabelark

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    Gandalf,

    Looking at my list of supplements leaves me baffled. I cannot fathom why someone would use all of that every single day, unless it was acting as some kind of mental crutch. But at the same time, I can identify the qualitative physiological difference of each supplement.

    Good point about melatonin. Now that you mention it, I remember reading that taking b12 is supposed to increase melatonin. I was fascinated with melatonin at first because of how it changed my circadian rhythm. Maybe magnesium alone would be enough to instill deep tiredness at night. Going to give it a try.

    I've switched back and forth between L-Carnitine Fumarate and Acetyl-L-Carnitine. At first, a-l-c produced profound mental clarity and give me energy to do things. The effect remained strong for maybe a week or two, before decreasing. Later, switching over to fumarate it was hard to tell the difference (compared to a-l-c). According to Fredd you are supposed to respond better to one over the other. Perhaps my initial response to a-l-c means that is the one I should be using and not fumerate.
     
  8. Soundthealarm21

    Soundthealarm21 Senior Member

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    @Beyond a big one that helped me was Inositol which is a phospholipid precursor.
     
    Beyond likes this.
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Beyond likes this.
  10. mabelark

    mabelark

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    Beyond,

    Did you by any chance take n-a-g with food? For me the effect is far superior when taken upon an empty stomach.

    As regards to social phobia, one of most effective things I've tried is a low dose of amisulpride. For me it improved the ability to seek and maintain eye contact, as well as stabilizing the muscles in my face. It sounds strange, but it improved my ability to make facial expressions.
     
    Beyond likes this.
  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @mabelark

    In terms of rationalizing your supplement regimen: did you actually benefit from the B12 and/or methylation protocol? If not, then you might perhaps consider discontinuing that. If you look at this informal poll on the methylation protocol, you see that only 25% experienced major improvements. I found no noticeable benefits from either B12 or the methylation protocol, no matter how much I tried to tweak these get these to work, so I decided not to continue with either.

    That is interesting: I found my ME/CFS brought some autism-like symptoms, including a sensitivity and mental tension arising from the presence of people on some days (which is not the same as social anxiety), and I found very low dose amisulpride helped with this.
     
  12. mabelark

    mabelark

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    I've gone back and forth on the worth of b12 & metafolin et al. quite a bit. Never experienced what Fredd calls "start up effects" or "overmethylation", which is a little disparaging. Disregarding Fredd’s persuasive (in my mind) theory, I suppose the reasons I continue on his protocol is that I've felt increased physical and mental endurance ("making it through the day"-energy). The benefits only seem to come in specific conditions, though. May I ask you, Hip, how deep your experimentation with b12/metafolin went? The factors of interest for b12 are the brand (for me, encymatic therapy is noticeably better than others), how you ingest it (for me, placed in the right/left pocket of the upper lip, works better than other combinations), while with metafolin there may be specific genetic mutations of interest (hetero/homozygous for MTHFR C677T and/or MTHFR A1298C).

    I am not sure if these autism signs come from (suspected) ME or are just part of my introverted personality. But I can sure relate to what you call increased sensitivity as something that came along when my other problems started. (I remember sitting in therapy and talking at length about how the "feel" of certain places in the city would be intruding on me and my peace of mind.) And yes amisulpride provides some "padding" with regards to feelings of places/people intruding. In this it has remained effective. Another of amisulpride’s interesting aspects is that it markedly increased my desire for social interaction. Unfortunately, this stimulant like effect only lasted for a week or two before going away. A temporary break revealed that it can be brought back, but I am skeptical about the prospect of cycling a drug like that.
     
  13. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Thanks for the suggestions guys, I will try these when I can. Inositol has been reommended to me from someone else with OCD already and choline my SNP´s (MTHFD and others) anyway call for it. I don´t think I can get amisulpride or I want to try it. I react to psych drugs pretty badly. I will leave it in my mind if other things fail. I took the NAG for a while before sleep, I think I was empty-gutted but not sure.

    Anyway, this thread was started by mabelark! But I appreaciate a lot that people see that I am struggling and they recommend things.
     
  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I experimented to the Nth degree with vitamin B12 and the methylation protocol. I have tried various forms of B12: methylcobalamin, adenosylcobalamin and hydroxocobalamin, using Freddd-recommended brands. I have tried many ways of ingestion, including injectables (of hydroxocobalamin), rectal infusion (which I think is the most effective after injection), intranasal, and upper lip mucous membrane administration. I have tried folinic acid and L-5-MTHF.

    I have also tried taking all the co-factors suggested by Freddd (like carnitine fulminate, alpha lipoic acid, TMG) which he says might potentially block the effects or benefits of B12, but these did not help.

    My MTHFR C677T is +/+ (homozygous) and my MTHFR A1298C is -/- (no mutations).

    That is very interesting.

    I think there may be two (possibility related) phenomena here: the sensitivity and mental tension that arises from the immediate presence of people; and the way the "feel" of certain experiences can inappropriately intrude into the mind.


    I myself don't have any problems with places and locations, but I certainly find that the "essence" and "energy" of people, if I spend several hours in their company, will intrude into my mind, so that I feel as if I have been in some way poisoned or contaminated by them. It then takes me a day or two of solitary activities to come back to myself, and clean my mind of these extraneous essences and opinions of other people.

    It is as if talking with people for several hours kind of puts things out of place in my own mind, and I then need solitary time to reorder myself.

    This phenomenon occurs even with very good friends, and as a result it means that I tend to limit my social activities to one or two social sessions a week (by social sessions I mean say a quiet evening out with friends, or visiting a friend in their home). I find I need a day or two to mentally recover and "decontaminate" my mind after such sessions.

    These social sessions also exhaust me mentally, and the exhaustion seems to go hand in hand with this feeling of the "energies" of people getting too deep into my mind and soul. My ME/CFS is primarily mental, not physical. I can run a mile relatively easily, but get exhausted by social activities. So I get both mental exhaustion and contamination at the same time.

    Though interestingly, I do not suffer these mental fatigue and contamination symptoms during the social session itself; it is only in the hours and days that follows that I feel a feeling that the "essence" of people has intruded too deeply into my mind.

    I would like to know the correct psychological classification for this type of mental state. What is it called when you feel somehow contaminated by people's essences, or the essences of places?

    If it were possible to find the right DSM classification for this mental disorder/symptom, then I think it may help in terms of identifying useful medications and treatments, and may help in terms of working out what the biochemical underpinning of such mental symptoms might be.

    In some sense, this intrusion of other people's essences and energies into your own my feels like is a result of your own personal value system / belief system not being properly "firewalled" against external value and beliefs from other people.

    Because of this weak mental firewall, you absorb too much of the essences and characteristics of other people, and the general conversation disturbs the order in your mind, so that you then need to spend some time on your own, so that you can slowly reinstate you own self, and return the mental chaos caused back to order.

    One consequence of this condition is that it tends to make me less tolerant and more argumentative and more bigoted, which I don't like at all, because I used to be a very broad minded, accepting and eclectic person.

    But I think I may have developed this intolerant argumentative disposition to protect my mind from the values and beliefs of others, in an attempt block what feels like the contamination of my mind by other people's views and opinions. Certainly the fault lies with me, regarding my argumentative disposition: this arises out of the frailty of my mind; it is not the fault of others.


    I also found that very low dose (12.5 to 25 mg a day) amisulpride does provide some "padding" for the mind, in that this drug helps cushion against other people's essences and energies. And I also found that amisulpride increased my sociability (my desire to socialize). My sociability which plummeted quite low after a developed ME/CFS from a chronic viral infection.

    (Incidentally, fortunately I don't think I developed tolerance to amisulpride, but I read that one way to sidestep the tolerance is just to take amisulpride only every other day.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
  15. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    How about because someone has a seriously messed up metabolism? The number of medications and supplements that you are taking is not unusual here. I would not quit taking something that was making me feel better because I thought I was taking too many pills.

    You could try stopping one at a time to see if any are no longer helping you. You could also try reducing doses, again one at a time, to see if you needed less of any.
     
    Beyond likes this.
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mabelark,

    Not everybody does better with one than another. That appears to be a distinguishing mark for something, that 90% of those for whom it makes a difference need the LCF and the other 10% need the ALCAR. But in lots of folks it makes no difference at all. It seems to maybe be some kind of genetic thing. Magnesium is important for the whole deadlock quartet cycle to work. Consider yourself lucky to not be so hemmed in. Some people just need to get the cycle started and some need a specific one to keep the cycle going.
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Hip,

    I would like to know the correct psychological classification for this type of mental state. What is it called when you feel somehow contaminated by people's essences, or the essences of places?
    If it were possible to find the right
    DSM classification for this mental disorder/symptom, then I think it may help in terms of identifying useful medications and treatments, and may help in terms of working out what the biochemical underpinning of such mental symptoms might be.

    I would call it high empathy. I'm a mystic when I'm not being a nutrition and data geek. It seems pretty normal to happen but how one feels about it is what can be changed. I can't take too much of too many people without a break. I don't feel "contaminated" but more exhausted. Some of these thongs can be caused by functional mood and personality changes caused by deficiencies at first, and later actual damage.

    But I think I may have developed this intolerant argumentative disposition to protect my mind from the values and beliefs of others

    My experience and that of many others is that the changes make us irritable and intolerant. This in me stemmed from out of balance items as well as damaged areas in the brain. When I go into methyltrap I get very irritable. The shorthand we used at a different board is "Mr. Hyde" has come replacing the kindly Dr. Jekyll. Many of us experienced changing back and forth as things changed.
     
    cph13 likes this.

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