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Cal/Mag - its role in this and how important is it?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Rockt, Mar 12, 2011.

  1. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    In preparation for undergoing a methylation protocol, I stopped taking all supplements for about 2 weeks and have been slowly re-introducing them. I started adding cal/mag in small amounts and by the second day, started getting more late pm malaise. I had noticed this before with cal/mag. Didn't take it the next day and didn't get the late pm malaise, (I had taken it after lunch before). The magnesium is Natural Calm pure magnesium powder and the calcium is another powder, supposedly highly absorbable.

    So not sure what to do. How important is Cal/Mag to the active B12 supplementation? Don't suppose I could skip it?

    Input greatly appreciated.
     
  2. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Rockt,

    I'm early into a Methylation protocol too. I have most of the co factors established, plus B12 and have just started some active folate (5MTHF)
    ....2 days in and nothing too terrible has happened.

    I can't speak for calcium, but I had a terrible time with magnesium (chloride oil) a month or so back. It worsened almost every symptom I have. Hit me like a freight train!

    I've re introduced it slowly this past week with B6 and I don't seem to be having the same problem.My magnesium is obviously very well absorbed, I feel an effect - but it's as if I'm needing, and using magnesium most in a place where it works synergistically with B6. This time the effect is positive (relaxing/calming).

    Were you taking a B Complex or a multi (incl some B6) before adding the cal/mag?

    Perhaps others with a bit more technical knowledge will weigh in here too :)

    Best, Anne.
     
  3. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Thanks Anne.

    No I haven't added any B vitamins yet. I wanted to re-introduce everything slowly and I've been doing that, incl. the mag. + cal. But I still got that mental malaise. I've felt better the last 2 days not taking it and now I don't want to take it, but Freddd says it's essential.
     
  4. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    This is what I know about magnesium...

    It seems that those with fatigue do best with Magnesium Malate. I don't know why but I've read that malate is part of the citric/krebs cycle in the mitochondria.

    Those with depression appear to do best with magnesium glycinate and taurate. However magnesium glutamate and aspartate make depression worse, probably because they activate NMDA receptors.

    Useful link: http://george-eby-research.com/html/depression-anxiety.html

    Magnesium is also important in converting tryptophan into serotonin and then into melatonin.

    "In order to produce serotonin from tryptophan we need plenty of Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) and Magnesium as well as vitamin D (from sunlight). These are essential coenzymes necessary in the conversion of tryptophan into serotonin and without which the body cannot produce serotonin. If it cannot produce serotonin, it cannot produce melatonin (our sleeping hormone), which is also dependent on vitamin B6 and magnesium. "
    http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/articles/insomnia.html

    "In people who are even marginally vitamin B6 deficient, tryptophan may be rapidly degraded into mildly toxic metabolites such as hydroxykynurenine, xanthurenic acid and hydroxyanthranilic acid. "
    http://intelegen.com/nutrients/ltryptophan__natures_answer_to_p.htm

    Rockt, maybe it would be a good idea to add in some of the other basics such as a b complex and vitamin d before adding the magnesium. Or try a tiny amount in some cream and then rubbing it onto your skin.
     
  5. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    Rockt, another thought. Can you try a small amount of magnesium without the calcium? I was just re-reading some info about magnesium and calcium and remembered that too much calcium in relation to magnesium can cause depression. If you eat a lot of dairy you might already be getting plenty of calcium as milk has 10 times as much calcium in relation to magnesium. Some people find they don't need to supplement with calcium at all.
     
  6. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    Sorry, I should have mentioned why magnesium is important for methylation/mitochondria. Basically for ATP to be usable it needs to bind to magnesium. So in terms of the methylation cycle Methionine + MgATP = SAMe.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_in_biology
     
  7. pken

    pken

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    I second this - excess calcium can cause all sorts of problems. There's a belief that because "calcium is good for bones" it's automatically OK. And that's not necessarily true.
     
  8. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    After my experience starting slowly with a well absobed magnesium I didn't want to try it again either. I was SO unwell (dramatically worsened fatigue, swollen glands, anxiety....couldn't stand noise or touch) and it seemed to get worse by the day.
    48 hours after stopping I felt so much better.

    I strongly recommend getting some B6 on board first (or a B complex?) thern trying again slowly with the magnesium.

    Best,
    Anne.

     
  9. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Thanks for all the good advice.

    Well, obviously I can't skip the mag. Can I skip the calcium? I'm going to wait 'til my IHerb order comes, (B-Right is part of it), and supplement with that B-complex before I try mag. again. I'll definitely try it without calcium first.
     
  10. pken

    pken

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    Yes, skip the calcium - unless you're on a very weird diet you'll be getting enough to get by for a while without it. Be wary of b complexes though - I feel awful on them and this may be because of the folic acid in them. I don't seem to be alone. Also see Freddd's thread about folic acid blocking metafolin.
     
  11. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    For anyone concerned - Pure Encapsulations does a B Complex with active folate and no folic acid. (Thanks Liz.)
     
  12. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Anne and all.

    On the B6/magnesium connection, Adelle Davis, a pioneer in treating illnesses with nutrition, emphasized the importance of taking these two together. The late Bernie Rimland, founder of the Autism Reseach Institute and the Defeat Autism Now! project, learned this from Adelle, and that project found this combination to be very helpful in autism as well. Autism and CFS have a great deal in common in their biochemical abnormalities.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  13. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Rich.

    Hi Rich,

    I remember an Adelle Davis book or two in my mother's collection. :)
    I have a Bernard Rimland book (the ARI book) in mine!
    ...I should know this stuff, but still I have a B6 question, if you don't mind. When would P-5-P be indicated rather than pyridoxine?
    I noticed that's what's used in the Neurological Health Formula I'm taking.

    It's a bit off topic here but I wanted to let you know that I'm taking 2 caps of Yasko's Nucleotide Support formula these past few days and I've noted it seems to help noticibly with the extra inflammatory pain I felt after starting the simplified protocol.
    I'm also going to start activated charcoal before bed after reading your post today on ammonia. I've noticed a faint ammonia smell on my skin a couple of times. I do have excitotoxicity which hasn't increased, but I'll be sure to let you know, in the relevant thread even (!), if a decrease results from taking the charcoal.

    Best,
    Anne.
     
  14. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Oh boy, this gets confusing.

    Well, I'm on a pretty strict low carb, higher protein and fat diet - it's helped a great deal physically, (but not mentally, unfortunately), so I don't know if I'm getting enough calcium. I eat green vegetables like brocoli, kale, collards, swiss chard - I think there's calcium in them, but it depends what they have at the store, (also trying to eat organic), so I don't know about consistency.

    I think I felt crappy before on B-complex, as well, and haven't taken any for a long time. However, it's on the list of essentials that Freddd recommends, so I ordered it and thought I'd try it with the magnesium.

    I'm really hopeful about this whole methylation thing because I had good results with injectable B12 in the past - unitl it stopped working, (I've since read Freddd's reasons why it stops working so I'm hopeful I can get some relief from sublinguals).
     
  15. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Definitely confusing and complicated...

    I hear you Rockt -- definitely confusing and complex, I think because we're all different, so what works for one may not work for another.

    For example, I can't seem to tolerate the high protein, high fat, low carb thing at all. I get REALLY tense if I don't have enough complex carbs. Now perhaps some of that will change if I can get the folate/b12/mag/b vitamin kinks worked out. I hope!

    As for calcium, I guess the best test will be to reduce calcium rich foods for a few days and see how you do. I know milk -- especially pasteurized, homogenized milk -- isn't the best food for some (although ayurveda swears it's a great healing food), I've found that if I skip dairy for more than 36 hours, I can almost guarantee myself that I'll get an extremely strong, painful cramp in my foot or lower leg, typically in the middle of the night.

    Folks say that calcium contracts muscles and magnesium relaxes them. I suppose that's true to a certain extent. But one of the key symptoms of true hypocalcemia is tetany, or strong leg cramps -- "contractions". And for me, the only thing that relieves them is a warm glass of milk.

    Just my two cents.

    Dan

    p.s. there's a good thread on folic / folinic acid and the potential to cause methylfolate deficiencies that was started a few days ago by Fredd -- you might want to check that out. Both Freddd and Kurt and have had great results, and now Anne has started, and I will too ASAP.

    http://forums.aboutmecfs.org/showth...in-inducing-deficiency-called-quot-ddtox-quot
     
  16. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Thanks Danny.

    Yes, we're all different and experimentation will be part of this. But I'm so encouraged by people like Freddd and Kurt and really appreciate the input from everyone. I think we're going to get somewhere with this!
     
  17. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Magnesium was key for me, calcium not so much. Depends on your diet of course.

    Absorption can be tricky, the Natural Calm caused stomach pain for me. The chelated forms are typically good, any that use Albion minerals and especially Jigsaw Health Magnesium SRT. Magnesium chloride oral and oil both worked for me.

    The Magnesium Factor and The Magnesium Miracle have good information. Dr. Nathan has a chapter on magnesium as it relates to CFS in his book On Hope and Healing.
     
  18. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Anne.

    Thanks for the information about your response to nucleotide support. Normally, folates are needed to make nucleotides, but the folate metabolism is dysfunctional in ME/CFS because of the partial block of methionine synthase and the methyl trap, which drains folate from the cells when this reaction is partially blocked. One of the main reasons for including folinic acid in the protocol is to help with the production of nucleotides until the folate metabolism has been restored, but taking them directly, as you have done, is another option, and I'm glad it is helping you. The nucleotides are important for making new DNA and RNA for new cells, and also for making ATP.

    With regard to pyridoxine and P5P, P5P is the active coenzyme form of vitamin B6. Some people have difficulty converting pyridoxine into P5P. This requires an active coenzyme form of riboflavin (vitamin B2) If that is deficient, or if the conversion to its active form is not working well, such as for genetic reasons, then the production of P5P will be hindered.

    Dr. Amy Yasko recommends in autism treatment that the B6 or P5P supplementation be kept low for people who have upregulating SNPs in the CBS enzyme, because this enzyme requires P5P, and one way to slow it down is to limit that. She finds that an upregulated CBS enzyme will increase the flow down the transsulfuration pathway and raise ammonia production. However, in ME/CFS, I find that many people have a deficiency of B6 (or P5P), I think because they are forced to burn amino acids for fuel, and this requires transamination reactions, which use P5P. A coenzyme is normally a catalyst and does not get used in the reaction, but over time some is lost if it is used a lot. So this seems to require a delicate balancing act!

    With regard to calcium, note that when the NMDA receptors on the neurons are overactive (excitotoxicity), they open calcium channels and let too much calcium into the neurons, and this can eventually kill them. Dr. Yasko likes to say, "Glutamate is the trigger, and calcium is the bullet." So if a person is troubled with excitoxicity, limiting calcium intake some may help. Of course, it is an essential mineral, and that needs to be kept in mind, to avoid going into osteoporosis or osteomalacia. This is especially important for women to be careful of. Again, it's a balancing act.

    I hope the activated charcoal helps you. I don't know the appropriate dosage, but I recall one person saying that it's important to take a pretty hefty dosage. If it causes constipation, it can be slurried with a magnesium supplement, such as Milk of Magnesia, to counter that, and the magnesium is usually beneficial, too. Other than producing diarrhea if taken in large dosages, the only other issue with taking a lot of magneisum is that the kidneys must be able to dump the excess into the urine. If the there are problems with the function of the kidneys, too much magnesium can cause more trouble there. But people with normal kidney function who are drinking reasonable amounts of water can handle magnesium alright. In general, people with ME/CFS are low in intracellular magnesium. This seems to be related to glutathione depletion. Experiments have been published on red blood cells that showed that when glutathione was lowered, intracellular magnesium went down, and when it was raised again, the magnesium level came up. So it apparently affects the membrane ion pumps that control the magnesium level, at least in red cells.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
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  19. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Thanks so much Rich.
    Lots of great info here, as always!

    I have held off starting the Actifolate so far, but it seems I have at least good reason to introduce it.
    I'm tolerating the 1/4 Folapro relatively well I think. I'm not sure if I have reason to be so cautious or not, but for now at least I'll shuffle things around a bit to schedule the Actifolate well apart from the Folapro.

    My dose of charcoal is certainly not hefty. Perhaps that's why it hasn't had much of an effect yet :) I'll try a handful and have extra magnesium on standby. Thanks for the tips.

    Anne.
     
  20. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    david, can i get a source for the oral mag chloride?
     

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