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Buhner Lyme Protocol

Discussion in 'Lyme Disease and Co-Infections' started by Lotus97, May 14, 2013.

  1. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I was reading about Stephania in Buhner's book and it looks like it has to be Stephania Tetrandra (Stephaniae Tetrandrae) specifically. There was someone on eBay selling a different type of stephania that was a good price, but I'm not sure if it works the same (even if they are claiming in the description that it does).
  2. Creekee

    Creekee Senior Member

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    Interesting stuff, Lotus97. Thanks for posting.

    I just found on another forum someone saying Buhner says there is no herxing from Bartonella. Have you come across that in his materials?
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    That's interesting. I wonder when the quote from Buhner is though. His book is 8 years old and in the book he says only 5% of the Lyme coinfections are bartonella. His new book about Lyme coinfections is about mycoplasma and bartonella so I assume he's revised his position that bartonella is uncommon if he has new book on it. There's probably updated information in the new book that wasn't in Healing Lyme. He also has a lot of information on his website about bartonella
    http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/?s=bartonella

    I haven't really researched bartonella as I'm not sure if I have it. Some of the supplements I'm taking (knotweed, arginine, milk thistle, cat's claw, and eleuthero) happen to be in his bartonella protocol though:
  4. Beefsterq

    Beefsterq

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    Lotus- I don't think Stephania is on his core protocol, is it? Are you taking it for specific symptoms? There was an issue with Stephandria a while ago where some other plant was being passed off as Stephania (containing Arachadonic Acid i think its called) and caused some poisonings, so I'd make sure you have a verified source instead of the cheapest option on Ebay.

    I personally do a combo of the Buhner and the other herbalist named Cowden who found Samento/Banderol since they intertwine so well. I think a key to the success to these programs are that the herbs cover a broad array of bugs all while supporting the body systems.

    For instance, I'm sure you know the main component of Knotweed is Resveratrol which supports the nervous system, is anti-cancer, and also anti-viral.

    So, like I said, I do a combo. I take:
    Japanese Knotweed from Buhner
    Samento is a specific "variety" of Cat's Claw (which Buhner also recommends), so right now I'm going cheap and just taking the Cat's Claw to compare to how I feel while on Samento to see if its necessary to pay 10x as much for it.
    Banderol - Unfortunately Nutramedix is the only source for this one as well, so $30 a month.

    I know I have Lyme, and it really does help me significantly. The only unfortunate part is that as soon as I stop the drops, symptoms come back. I've yet to find a permanent fix, so I guess I'll be on these long term until I either run out of money or they find something better. :) You can certainly herx on these herbs, they are very broad spectrum. But you can always lower the dosage until its comfortable. No need to hit with 100%

    Good luck to you!
    cigana likes this.
  5. Beefsterq

    Beefsterq

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    Oh, and I also do Hot Yoga (Bikram) 2x a week to try to keep myself in a state of detox as much as possible. Not sure if you're in a state where you can handle that, but I highly recommend it, even if just sitting there in the heat. Alternatively, sauna-ing.
  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Buhner said stephania can be substituted for some of the herbs in the core protocol. It has anti-inflammatory and immunomodulatory properties which seems to be some of Buhner's top priorities when choosing herbs (see post #17 of this thread). It also can help with certain neurological effects. I wasn't sure if I was going to buy stephania on eBay (although the seller did have a good feedback rating), but it's not Stephania Tetrandra which is what Buhner recommends so I'm not getting it. He talks in the book about the mix up. I doubt it was arachadonic acid though since that's in food.
    There's nothing wrong with mixing protocols, but Buhner is unimpressed with the Samento/Banderol study (which I also posted about earlier in the thread). Banderol kills a lot of pathogens, but there are plenty of cheaper supplements that do the same thing (oregano oil, garlic, olive leaf extract, etc). I'm not sure about the safety of colloidal silver or grapefruit seed extract, but those are also cheaper options in terms of anti-everything supplements.

    Buhner recommends the whole herb of cat's claw rather than samento (TOA-free cat's claw). He says the POAs (which is in both samento and whole herb cat's claw) help with immune function while the TOAs help with the neurological effects on the central and peripheral nervous system. He explains in the book in more detail why he thinks the studies claiming TOA-free is better are flawed. He actually devotes at least 2-3 pages on the TOA controversy. People say they herx more on the samento, but I don't know if that necessarily means it's more effective. I also don't know if the side effects from samento are always from a herx. Buhner said samento is more likely to cause problems. I'm not going to do everything Buhner says just because he says it, but he's studied this a lot longer than I have.
    Alea Ishikawa and cigana like this.
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Buhner posted this Nov. 2011 on his website about substituting stephania (and possibly arabinogalactan) for herbs in the core protocol. Arabinogalactan is also sold as larch or larix.
    Also, this is from 2009. He says andrographis can break up cysts/encysted forms of spirochetes and yet he seems to think andrographis is of lesser importance compared to some of the other herbs he recommends. I'm not even sure if he considers it to be in the core protocol since it's omitted on a list of dosages for herbs in the core protocol.
    As I mentioned earlier, his opinion of sarsaparilla/smilax has also lowered. Note: some people have chlorella intolerance so a person should start with a very low dose.
    cigana likes this.
  8. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I'm still feeling the flu-like symptoms (fatigue, lightheaded, nausea, loss of appetite) since starting the protocol. How do I know if this is from the protocol working or some other effect of the herbs unrelated to fighting the Lyme infection? I want be optimistic, but also realistic.
  9. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    Lotus97 I was on the Buhner protocol for about 3 mos and it really helped me. The only reason I stopped was a move that was time consuming and stressful and got me so disorganized I quit all my treatments After the move I began to reinstate my protocols....... started back with Rich's Simplified protocol(which I had been on 3 yrs) adding each supplement one at a time. I had intended to continue on and reinstate my Buhner protocol but I got my 23andme results and have been addressing my CBS defect instead
    I really want to get back on Buhner as I had such a profound response to it and I am so old and have lyme for 40 yrs I really dont want to deal with antibiotics........just build my immune system and general health by working on my SNP's and treat my lyme with herbs and hope to keep it beat back a bit.
    RosieBee and cigana like this.
  10. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    Lotus97 I wanted to add that each time I added a tincture I got flu like symptoms.
  11. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    I am doing the Buhner core protocol along with my (relatively low dose) abx. I may have a little improvement, it is hard to tell really. I will keep updated here too if anything good comes of this. Though it will be hard to separate out the effects of the herbs vs the abx.
    justy likes this.
  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    It's been around 6 or 7 months since I started the protocol. I'm not really sure if it's working or not. The Lyme doctor in the article I link to below says even with antibiotics and a whole host of other treatments it can take up to 3 years before a recovery. I've been really depressed for the past 2 months. I think it might have been probiotics because that's happened in the past. Also, the pain in my hands has returned. It has escalated pretty quickly over the past week. I'm thinking both the depression and pain might be from inflammation. I'm not really sure what to do. I'm thinking of looking for a Lyme doctor. I don't really want to take antibiotics, but I feel like I have to do something.

    I found an interesting article by a Lyme doctor:
    http://www.lymebook.com/steven-harris
    Aside from just prescribing antibiotics he does a lot of other tests and treatments along with it. It's very comprehensive and also very expensive probably. He says he uses the herbs Buhner recommends and uses Rich's methylation protocol. Even with everything he does he says it takes between 9 months and 3 years for his patient to recover.

    @cigana: Buhner says that knotweed helps the prescription antibiotics work better for some reason and the doctor in the article I linked also thinks the antibiotics work better with drugs.
  13. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    You should consider getting a phone consultation with Buhners partner Julie. I hear she is very good.
  14. shannah

    shannah Senior Member

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    Curcumin for the inflammation may help.
  15. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    I certainly know how hard that depression can be to deal with, it is the worse symptom when it's at its peak, maybe you can give yourself a break from those probiotics just for a bit of sanity.
    I recently stopped the protocol because I am concerned about the th1/th2 shift being in the wrong direction, since I've had mine measured (before I started the protocol). I think it was one of your posts that alerted me to this. Can you get yours measured?
    The other thing that I think is important is to look into mold exposure. Dr Shoemaker says if c4a is raised and tnf-a is raised it's more likely Lyme is your problem, however if c4a is raised but tnf-a is not, then mold is more likely. I fit into the mold category.
    My c4a has come down with chlorella. Since then I've noticed going to 2 "clean" locations have brought about improvement in my health that no other treatment could do (unfortunately a chance visit to japan through my work, which I couldn't afford personally).
    The benefits of following a mold protocol is much of it can be done without strong medications/abx.
    Lotus97 and Tiger Lily 813 like this.
  16. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    If you're not sure then it's likely that it's not working. What have you been you taking exactly?
    Did you take the Buhner test to make sure each herb is the right one for you?
    Up to three years before seeing signs of a recovery? I'm not sure that's true. If something works it should be apparent within a few weeks or couple of months at the latest. But if one persists with stuff that doesn't work well, then I can understand it might take even years.
    Andrographis did not wok against the cystic form of Borrelia, nor any other herb I tried (including samento e banderol) only Metronidazole did that for me.
    I forgot...if you any coinfections his book on the subject is a good read.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
  17. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @Beefsterq are you still finding the hot yoga helpful? I'm looking at trying a similar approach to aide in detox versus chelation which I know I can't handle right now. But I lost most of the day from going to my first "warm" class. Felt amazing afterwards, but went into a big energy slump later in the day. I think I have to really watch that it doesn't push my potassium balance down. I had to 4X my dose today to bounce back out of energy slump.. interested if you are still finding it helpful/seeing progress with sweating it out... Star
  18. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Hanna likes this.
  19. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    @Martial Thanks so much for posting this informative article. I am going to dig deeper because lately I have been having such bad symptoms from detox that I have for the moment discontinued my Buhner protocol.
  20. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    no problem! By the way I am a huge fan and advocate of Buhner's work and protocol as well! He is a very intelligent guy and extraordinarily compassionate!

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